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Liz Kay
Hello and welcome to the Providence College Podcast. I'm your host, Liz Kaye, and I'm joined by producer Chris Judge at the Class of 2005 here on the Providence College Podcast. We bring you interesting stories from the fire family. This week, we have the pleasure speaking with Brenda Chapman McGill, a member of PC's Inaugural Class of Women, one of just nine black women to enroll in Providence College in 1971.

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Liz Kay
McGill majored in psychology and spent more than two decades at the Community College of Rhode Island, working in advising and with students with disabilities. Not long ago, she returned to the classroom herself, completing her doctorate in behavioral sciences in 2016. Brenda, thanks so much for joining us.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
You're welcome. So glad to be here.

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Liz Kay
So tell us about your path to Providence College. What led you to enroll in 1971?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
It was interesting. Excuse me. It was interesting because it was not planned. College was not something I had discussed with family or thought of even. But a high school guidance counselor saw something and handed me a pack of papers and said, Have your parents fill this out and bring it back. And I was this, you know, studious student.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so I did what I was told and received a letter from Providence College saying you've been accepted into the summer program. And if you had completed the summer program, then you would be awarded a MLK scholarship. And then just to maintain my scholarship was keeping that B average. And that's exactly what we got. So that's what kind of brought me here was my first adventure from home, and I was looking forward to just being able to experience what that's like to be out of the house.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so, yeah, so that's what brought me here.

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Liz Kay
And to be clear, you weren't traveling all that far from home, right?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
No, no. When they built a new dorm, which now has its real name, we were able to see my street from the top floor of new dorm. So I lived on the east side of Providence Neuro shamble Avenue. And yes, so it was very close. Sometimes students would say things like, You live where? Like, Yeah, I could walk home practically, but.

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Liz Kay
So when you were living in McKinney that first year, you could basically see your street?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes. Yes. Vinny Aquinas.

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Liz Kay
So it really would be the tall tower that goes to ten.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Floors when it was built, right? Vinny Yes, I'm just thinking the very first building, McQueeney wasn't there yet.

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Liz Kay
Okay, That's right. That's right. Yeah. And where is your family from originally? What brought them to your island?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yeah. So we're from Macon, Georgia, and I still have a few relatives still there. My mother was a family of 11 and my dad was just he and his brother. But my dad was in the Navy and he was transferred to Newport Base. And so we followed him from Georgia up here, and that was probably preschool about age, that timeframe.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And we stayed. He completed his, what is it, 21 years or whatever they were doing back then at the naval base. And he was on a aircraft carrier, which was always exciting to go and pick him up and be able to see this humongous building type ship.

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Liz Kay
Skyscraper on water.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So that's what got us here.

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Liz Kay
Had they gone to college themselves, your parents?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
No. Nope, they had not. I don't believe either of them finished high school and the. Which made me a first gen student. Both my brother and sister had gone to college. Not positive. They finished the bachelor's degree by the time I went in, so. But neither one of my parents had that.

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Liz Kay
They weren't pushing you at home to go, but no.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Not at all. It's not a table conversation. Yeah.

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Liz Kay
And what led you to choose to major in psychology?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
It was a second choice, right? In high school, we had to do an internship, community service, and I chose to work at the elementary school that I passed. Going to high school, I went to Hope High School and Martin Luther King Elementary School was on the way there. And and I read with students who had not yet mastered the reading skills.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And I said, oh, I think teaching would be nice. I'm enjoying this. And so but coming here on a full scholarship, I wasn't going to argue about what programs they were here. So psychology was the closest one I could connect with. And again, I took a couple of courses, evening classes, but there was no program for education, a full program here in the early seventies.

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Liz Kay
You were at the time one of a small group of students of color at PC and of course, one of the few women as.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Well.

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Liz Kay
Who were some of the people who supported you and helped you and your classmates during those years?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Well, we had a great support system, and it started with Father Robert Morris and his office was always open to us. And he had such a wonderful demeanor about him that we I felt safe communicating with him. And surprising to me that he actually would see things through and get back to me and let me know what I needed to do next to answer my concerns they had at that time.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Dr. Robert Hamlin was also here on campus and will see commission was also here. So that that was a wonderful thing to have two additional people of color on campus, considering how few there were on campus to see. And so they were essential for my feeling like I belonged here and, you know, keeping that conversation strong, that you belong here, you can do this work, Don't quit.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yeah. So they were my biggest supports and obviously my roommates and all the brothers on campus who were always treated us like little sisters. It was it became a very good family.

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Liz Kay
When you say brothers, you mean like the older students of color, the men who would have enrolled if.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, yes, yes, yes. The senior classmate. I don't recall whether the years that they were in. It was much later that I realized, like, okay, like who's a who's a sophomore, who's a junior, who's a senior, because college was such a new experience for me. I didn't know all the language and all the lingo of understanding that. But yeah, they were great.

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Liz Kay
So your husband, Patrick Joseph McGill, was also an alumna class of 1972. How did the two of you meet? Yeah.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Oh, that's so interesting here. So I actually met Patrick when the other students of color were playing card games. Spades or bid whist or am not a card game player either, but I did have to learn how to do that eventually, and he would play with them. And so if we were going by the dorms and they were downstairs in the lounge playing these card games, he would be there.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And eventually we started to have conversations as a group. We might go and watch the guys do a pickup basketball game and he would be there and I'm like, What is this non color person hanging out with all these people of color all the time? And he had been accepted in their group. And so it was a it was a comfortable place to start chatting and we just continued to chat.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
He was crazy enough to ask me to marry him in my freshman year. And if, you know, when we actually got married, I said, Are you crazy? I just left my father's home. I'm not quite ready to join another man's home, but he waited another six years and then we got married, I think.

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Liz Kay
Yes, that's a lovely story, but it sounds like he knew.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, he had made the choice. Yes, yes, yes. So it was good. It was a little difficult. But timing being dating a white man and even with the looks around campus or if we went off campus, the stairs was was uncomfortable. But we were young enough and foolish enough to was like, whatever. And on campus, I think my brothers and my sisters were concerned because again, this was not a normal site on campus as to how I was handling all of this.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And and after they kind of realized, okay, she's got her head on right. He's going to be okay. He's treating her good. They all accepted him again as well. So throughout our whole marriage, we all was still together with the rest of the college campus. Yeah.

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Liz Kay
But but it and like he you know, he needed some vetting.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Oh, yes, I believe that it's very true. Definitely. They did. They did.

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Liz Kay
But you dated your four years of college and then.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, dated those four years of college. I went off to Georgia State University for two years. And around that time, his mother actually said to him, if you're serious about this young lady, she's not going to sit and wait for you. You need to put a ring on her finger. So he did. He got engaged at LaSalle. It's Ryan.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so that's a little special place.

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Liz Kay
Now up in Massachusetts.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, this is right over the line. Yeah.

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Liz Kay
What a beautiful story. And how nice for your mother in law to be advocating for you. Really?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yeah. So that was great.

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Liz Kay
So you mentioned you went to Georgia State after after graduating. What were some of the things or experiences that you had at PC that helped you choose a career? Oh.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Choosing my career, there was some work I want to say in my senior year I worked at Wrentham State School, which is in students at that time, was called for severely and profoundly handicapped students and again, continue to find my standing, my feeding my footing around what I like to do, what touches my heart. And teaching clearly became obvious during that timeframe.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so my going off to Georgia State was to get teaching certification, and I wanted then to continue my psych degree in counseling without a lot of advice. I got there and found out they wouldn't allow me to double major. And so I'm like, okay, well, I'm here now. I have a place of residence. I will finish one degree and go home.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so I did my teaching certification in Georgia and and came on back. But finding that love of teaching is what happened here.

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Liz Kay
Outside of classes. What were some of the clubs and organizations that you joined? What did you do for fun?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Stayed out of trouble, mainly it was my fun, but I was a crazy student. I studied a lot and I joined the Afro AM Club. And then at some point, maybe my junior year, we participated in a competition to earn a spot on the cheerleading squad. And so those were my two biggest ones that I was that I participated in on campus.

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Liz Kay
So I wanted to ask you more about cheerleading, because I have learned that you are not the biggest basketball fan. So what led you to to seek a spot on the cheerleading squad?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Socialization of the for me being able to represent it was a big piece for me that it would have a diverse group of cheerleaders when the ladies that joined me to have that discussion of who's going to try out and why are we trying out, it was very important to us to be represented on the team.

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Liz Kay
So at that point, it sounds like from your first few years that it was not integrated, that it was.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
I think it was all boys. When I first got here, there were no limits.

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Liz Kay
To the integration was more that.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Was right than just.

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Liz Kay
Just race. But yeah, so that first year when you first arrived at State, All men.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. When we joined, that's when they first let women participate.

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Liz Kay
I would have thought that would be one of the major, one of the simplest changes. But, you know, up until that point, it had all been men anyway, right?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yeah. Everyone had to take a long time to adjust to women being on campus in general. I meant to grab the old booklet that they created. Have you seen the booklet? Right. So to comment on just how fragile we were and how we needed to be treated and be aware of what our needs were and not to make us upset or cry and things like that.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
So they were protective, I'll put it that way.

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Liz Kay
But worries of joining the cheerleading team when you were not a fan like you must have been subjected to an awful lot of basketball as a result.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes. And it was great. I was open to these new experiences, but I think that was mainly what it was and I enjoyed it. We here I go with trying to remember it's basketball terminology. We made it to some high level of thinking of winning and we were going to travel with them. And so we were told to raise funds by dressing in our uniforms and going downtown to a gathering of financial supporters.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so we did that. And it was the first time I realized that people walked around with like $100 bills. And so it was good.

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Liz Kay
That that that's somebody.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, yes, yes. And so we were able to travel down and have a place to stay and travel back.

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Liz Kay
That would have been the final four in 1973, perhaps.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Sounds good.

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Liz Kay
Okay.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
You know.

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Liz Kay
I think that was would that have been. I'm just checking with with Chris Judge here. Is it the first or the second final four? That would've been our first Final Four appearance.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
For.

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Liz Kay
Products calls. I think a lot of people would recognize that appearance because it featured prominent college greats Ernie de Dee Guru and Marvin Barnes.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes. You're still here? Yeah. Yeah, it's really good.

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Liz Kay
Brenda, you spent the bulk of your career at the Community College of Rhode Island. You were helping students succeed, which is amazing. Work must have been so rewarding. What were some of the highlights for you? Wow.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Oh, my goodness. I think with CCR, I my first role there was with the Office of Student Services and creating a consortium to support students who are deaf and hard of hearing. And that required me to do training across the country for my own training and then bring that knowledge back and create a group of every single college, which we have quite a few in little bitty Rhody with their directors of disabilities services, and then explain how federally we needed to support students who are deaf and hard of hearing that transitioned into a trio program.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Not sure to use a federal program student support program as well. There are three different levels to it, and ours was a student success program, so I would have a caseload of students in mind just happened to be students who had disabilities. So a variety of learning disabilities, physical disabilities, emotional disabilities. And that's where, once again, my love for teaching kicked in because we had to teach our own student success course for that group.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Did that for several years and then went into advising and counseling as a director that loves that work because it was not just with students. It also involved working with faculty and deans and the different resources on campus. And then, as you know, the last five years I was with Disability Services, so it kind of felt full circle.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
But I started with students with disabilities and then I ended with students with disabilities. And again speaking to faculty chairs around the Adult Disability Act and what our responsibilities were with that, helping the college write policies and things like that. So just I loved it. So I guess the highlight right now is that I'm working with other faculty members to just continue to improve how we teach and how we help students learn.

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Liz Kay
Right? And imagine in that span of a career like the technology and the resources that you were able to provide for students for really advanced.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes. Yes. It has very much so constantly being updated with the type of technology that's available. Maintaining labs on campus for students to be able to test and do homework, have the books on tape was always quite, quite an endeavor, even to technology where, for example, when we needed to have a student take a online class, but they needed an interpreter, the interpreter needed to see not only hear the teacher, but that student needed to see the interpreter.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And so we needed software that would not just say, I can focus on the speaker because I need to see the interpreter or who is not speaking, but I don't need to see 20 students faces. And we were able to to find that technology. And eventually the school realized that they had to use it because it had to meet those students needs.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
So, yeah, always, always researching and technology.

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Liz Kay
All right. These are federal mandates, right?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Right, exactly. Yeah.

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Liz Kay
But it feels like things you know, speaking of coming full circle, things went full circle for you when you went back to school to get your own doctorate. Yeah. You know, years after helping students succeed in their own classes there you were back in the classroom again. What prompted you to go back?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
It was a high school dream. We had had a presentation and it actually was a woman of color. And as they introduced her and they said she was a Ph.D. and I was sitting in the auditorium going, What is that? And then, you know, they called her doctor. And I'm like, But what's the Ph.D. thing? And so without knowing what it was, I decided at that point I wanted one that was it.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
That was actually the seed that was planted. And when I finally realized what it was, I said, okay, I'm not going to do that while I'm raising children. And we allowed I allowed them to get through college and get independent and leave home. And then I went back and after I started at u r I in the Behavioral Science program, I kept saying, Lord, what am I doing?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Why am I doing this at this age? You know? And Patrick would remind me and say, he brought you to this because you asked for it, and so he's going to get you through this. So just keep going. And after a few years, you can't stop. So I wasn't going to stop. So, yeah, it's wonderful.

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Liz Kay
Can you tell us about your research? What? Were you reasonably sure?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, yes, yes. So my reach is focused on the student success course and was it having any effect? Was the retention for students? I took the focus for students who were developmental students as well. So the students who came into the community college but weren't performing at a grade level or grade level for English and math, for writing and math.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And the research showed that, yes, it did make a difference. And oh my gosh, I want to say it was over a course of six years, the data that I used because we needed to allow for students that might step out and come back. We also needed to allow for students who are going part time to actually be able to finish their 30 credits or 60 credits for the associate's degree.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
And it would just not surprised me that the students who had more support were doing well and then compared those numbers of students, again, students who did not take the course. It was not mandatory. And so I had a large percentage of students who were not taking the success courses. So it was good to have that comparison group in the research.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
It was it's a crazy experience just doing that entire process. My data crashed the year before and I had to redo all of my data again and my major professor who's CCAC winner from u r, I had said, Oh, you can do this. And I'm like, I am not trying to stress myself. I'll take another year and get it all done again.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
But the Ph.D. was was quite an experience and it was recommended to be it was I was invited to include it in the what Works matters always want to see that right. Which is a initiative from the U.S. Department of Education. They're just collecting that data and they can look at reports of what kind of things have been done that would helps, you know, students in college.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
So I was pretty proud of that. And it seems I was invited to submit it to that.

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Liz Kay
Yeah, that definitely seems like a kind of a validation that this was important work and but yeah, maybe something could be replicated someplace else or like.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Absolutely. And one of the fun things is that the library, once you submit your dissertation, they keep track of how many people requested and, you know, use it or whatever, and then they send you a quarterly report. So I'm always excited to see it still being used. That is so cool. You know, across the globe and a different they'll tell you what institutions have requested and things like that.

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Liz Kay
So I think you're joining a large contingent of of doctorates who are anxiously conscious, consistently checking their citations and seeing how often.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
It's fun to see. Yes.

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Liz Kay
So when you retired, he's here, right? Not too long after finishing that doctorate. What are you up to now? What keeps you busy?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
So besides my wonderful grandbabies, So I'm so intent on spending lots of time with. That's why we had to delay today. But I am working on a book and working on an online program. Again, just staying where I am. I want to continue to give back to students. And so to be able to provide that same support during my 15 plus years of teaching at CRI, I began using a program that no one uses this word anymore, but it's called trans theoretical model of behavior change, and it was created by the task force.

00;24;17;23 - 00;24;43;00
Brenda Chapman McGill
You are right, and it was used mainly for medical training. How do we get people to use contraceptions correctly, how to take pills correctly, how to improve their eating exercise, stop drinking, all those wonderful behavior change issues there. And I began using their model with my students because, again, students would come in and not have a clue as to why they're not doing well and not know where to go.

00;24;43;00 - 00;25;06;21
Brenda Chapman McGill
And if they don't get the right support right away, they could back away and quit and so I began using it in my site classes, and it has helped them realize that they have some control over their future by changing their behavior. And so there are multiple steps to it. And so that's the book I'm writing and the program that I'm creating online and very slowly.

00;25;06;21 - 00;25;09;07
Brenda Chapman McGill
But it's happening very neat.

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Liz Kay
Sort of like applying this model for health communication and helping patients adhere to the plans that had been set up for them.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Right? So it's that same model, but this is using just for college students. And so basically looking at returning adults as a focal point, whether they're in a health science program or it really doesn't matter. But the idea as a student who wants to do really well, who needs to keep that B-plus average or higher and can't figure out what's going wrong, then I can help them see that and get them through it.

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Brenda Chapman McGill
So which I've done for so long, it's so cool.

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Liz Kay
With them now to get a plan and then together and hopefully share that with even more students, correct?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, absolutely.

00;25;54;11 - 00;26;03;13
Liz Kay
You also shared your story with our colleagues in Providence College's archives as part of the Dear Future Friars Oral History Project. Why did you want to get involved in that initiative?

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Brenda Chapman McGill
That's the same reason about being having that representation there and that even more than that, it's how important a history is to have and to be able to hear a voice from the past. We know a lot of things haven't changed. Some things have gotten better. And if you read or listen to the news, you know, some things have gotten worse.

00;26;28;01 - 00;26;55;11
Brenda Chapman McGill
And it is so important that we know what is going on before us. We know that it's not good to forget what has happened before. So we might repeat that same behavior again. And so I said I might have been asked, so I won't say no, I won't step away from this this responsibility that's been offered to me to share my past.

00;26;56;15 - 00;27;18;24
Brenda Chapman McGill
And in the long run, we know the struggle is real for all of us. Female women of color, first gen, all of the all the different categories and that you can make it, that we can get through this. It's not always easy and it's not always fun, but if you have a strong faith, you just have to keep going inside.

00;27;18;24 - 00;27;20;28
Brenda Chapman McGill
Like, I'll I'll add my voice to this.

00;27;22;10 - 00;27;39;14
Liz Kay
And for those listeners who aren't familiar with your future fires, it's essentially an oral history project that's focusing right now on the stories of alumni of color at Providence College. And so we'll definitely share in the show notes ways that other alumni of color can participate as well, if they're interested.

00;27;39;25 - 00;27;44;26
Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm hoping there will be quite a few that will come forward.

00;27;45;09 - 00;27;55;24
Liz Kay
Yes. You know, I have asked you a lot about your experience being a person of color province College, but I don't think I've really asked you much about what it was like to be part of that first female class.

00;27;56;11 - 00;28;18;09
Brenda Chapman McGill
Oh, that was a hoot. Oh, my gosh. People kept saying, Are you looking for a husband? I'm like, No, I am not. And you know, all of the issues around how to treat the women on campus, it was a given. And I have to say I ignored most of it unless it was absolutely and excuse me in my face.

00;28;18;29 - 00;28;49;28
Brenda Chapman McGill
I just saw someone made a slight comment. I'd be like, wow, really? And then I'm on to say, What were we doing? Where are we going? A lot of friends took offense and and I just I just thought they were being silly. The some of the students were silly. Some of my faculty was silly. You know, they would make strange comments like, you know, how are you feeling today or and they were referencing like, are you in that in that season right now or that cycle right now?

00;28;49;28 - 00;29;07;00
Brenda Chapman McGill
And I'd be like, What are you talking about? But again, I was one of those. It was I was not engaging the issues, but they were they're they were they're so I'm hoping some of the other women can talk that much more in detail as to how they responded to some of that.

00;29;07;07 - 00;29;14;21
Liz Kay
Well, it sounds like you were able to let all of that roll off your back and reflect you and your your goals, which is phenomenal.

00;29;14;27 - 00;29;21;27
Brenda Chapman McGill
Yeah, I, I had a goal, I had a path, and I was not looking to disrupt it, which is why we didn't get married.

00;29;23;22 - 00;29;31;09
Liz Kay
But can I ask you about your faith? You had referenced it once before, but are you are you a religious person yourself?

00;29;31;15 - 00;30;04;04
Brenda Chapman McGill
Yes, I am. I'm a Christian. And so I truly believe we all have a purpose here and that we have the support that we need. If we can sit and understand what God has given us here. So he won't bring you into an environment that he won't give you a way out of. And I think that's how I kind of operated with Providence College.

00;30;04;18 - 00;30;32;01
Brenda Chapman McGill
And even though at that time I don't even think I was a baby in Christ at that point, you know, I'm out of my parents house. I'm on a college campus. But as I continue to grow and become a mom and then to raise my children, they became even more important to me that they understood the authority that they walk within, the power that God gives us to get through and to do what he's asked us to do in the process.

00;30;33;06 - 00;30;40;08
Liz Kay
What was it like for you to come to Providence College if you, as a person who was not Catholic in this very Catholic environment?

00;30;41;02 - 00;31;08;20
Brenda Chapman McGill
Again, my my little as quiet as I was back then and most people probably say she was pretty quiet, talking an awful lot right now. It was, again, the experience and the exposure. In high school, I had determined to visit churches in my neighborhood and I had a very diverse group of people that I knew. And so I tried to go to Let's a synagogue that didn't ever quite work out.

00;31;09;21 - 00;31;28;07
Brenda Chapman McGill
I used to walk by the synagogue on my way to and from junior high school. I met Nathan Bishop and then I was able to go to a Catholic services, which I found very strange because they were still in Latin. And I kept thinking, Do you know what he's saying? Do they know what he's saying? And I'm the only one who don't know Latin.

00;31;29;06 - 00;31;43;13
Brenda Chapman McGill
And I found out that, no, they did not know what he was saying. And so that was interesting. And then up on Moses Brown's campus, they have a Oh, my gosh, I just forgotten the name Quaker, the Quaker.

00;31;43;17 - 00;31;43;25
Liz Kay
Meeting.

00;31;44;04 - 00;32;10;16
Brenda Chapman McGill
Service. And so that was silence until they felt the spirit moved and then someone would speak. But it was never a congregational response. And I was like, This is really interesting. So coming here was not I didn't look at it as just another way someone was living and that I was going to, you know, work through this. It was interesting seeing the guys in their white robes all the time.

00;32;11;00 - 00;32;16;22
Brenda Chapman McGill
It was interesting to me. But again, as long as we didn't have any conflict, I was fine.

00;32;17;01 - 00;32;21;01
Liz Kay
Brenda Dr. McGill, it was wonderful chatting with you today. Thank you so much for joining us.

00;32;21;03 - 00;32;23;15
Brenda Chapman McGill
You are so welcome. Thank you for having me today.

00;32;23;27 - 00;32;34;22
Liz Kay
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