00;00;00;27 - 00;00;26;18
Michael Hagan
Hello and welcome to the Providence College Podcast. I'm Michael Hagan from the class of 2015 and I'm joined by producer Chris Judge from the class of 2005 in Peace's continuing celebration of 50 years of women undergraduates. Our guest today is fittingly one of the college's most distinguished alumni. A judge on the Rhode Island District Court whose roots in Providence and experiences as an educator led her to the legal profession named a district court judge in 2019.

00;00;26;19 - 00;00;45;11
Michael Hagan
She also serves on the board of directors of the Rhode Island Foundation and received a personal achievement award from the Providence College National Alumni Association last summer. As we continue to celebrate Black History and begin our celebration of this Women's History Month, we're fortunate enough to hear from somebody who is making both. It is our honor to welcome her honor.

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Michael Hagan
Judge Melissa DuBose to the podcast. Judge DuBose, thanks for joining us.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
Thank you, Michael. That was quite an introduction. I'm very excited to meet with you.

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Michael Hagan
So tell us a little bit about your role as an associate judge on the Rhode Island District Court. What kind of cases do you adjudicate.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
So I'm currently sitting at the Garrity Complex downtown Providence as a district court judge. I'm assigned to the arraignment calendar, which basically means whenever someone is formally charged with a crime, they have to be presented before a judge to be formally arraigned where those charges are formally lodged in the system. So on that calendar, I have the opportunity to not only apprize people of what they're being charged with, but most importantly on that calendar, I'm able to make a bail determination As to whether or not someone is going to be released back to the community or if there's some type of surety that needs to be set.

00;01;36;16 - 00;01;55;16
Judge Melissa DuBose
So for the most part, that's what I'm doing here. In the Sixth Division. I also have served on both the civil calendar in Kent County, where I did the eviction calendar during the early days of the pandemic. Which was was quite challenging. And also the criminal calendar there in Washington County in Kent County. Excuse me.

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Michael Hagan
So what values are most important in your work as a judge?

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Judge Melissa DuBose
I would think that for me, the most important value for a judge is your compassion and empathy of being able to meet people where they are when in many cases, when they appear before the court, they're at a really low point in their life. And so to meet those individuals on court users with empathy and compassion is critical and it's vital.

00;02;22;12 - 00;02;48;00
Judge Melissa DuBose
I also think that that's important because it instills faith in the system that people will get treated fairly when they appear in court. There isn't this presumption that this person is guilty. And so I really go out of my way to approach any litigant or anybody who's coming before me with that same kind of compassion and empathy that I would hope that would be given to me if I were unfortunately in their position.

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Michael Hagan
So now you weren't always in the legal profession. What led you from a career in education to a career in law?

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Judge Melissa DuBose
Yeah, I can tell you, you know, I always will go back to my teaching years in Providence. I loved being a Providence public school teacher. I taught history at the Textron Chamber of Commerce Public Charter School. And then I went over to teach history at Central High School. I always said that my life dream was to be a teacher.

00;03;14;23 - 00;03;43;15
Judge Melissa DuBose
I assumed that I would always be a teacher. And so it was really a tragedy that had changed that trajectory for me. While I was teaching at the charter school, I had a student of mine who I just adored, who was a member of my student council, who was just a bright spot in my day. I loved by the community, just a really creative Kennedy was a great, great dancer.

00;03;43;16 - 00;04;18;22
Judge Melissa DuBose
It was just everything about this young man was just phenomenal. And in April of his senior year, he committed a horrendous murder of another student. And it was at that time where, you know, you can imagine that that kind of shocks the community and the small charter school. But it was also a real eye opener for me. As much as you know and as well as I think I knew this student, there was this whole other life that he was living as a member of a Southeast Asian gang that I just didn't know.

00;04;19;08 - 00;04;40;29
Judge Melissa DuBose
And at that point, the students were really reaching out to me kind of as kind of as the advocate know what's going to happen to the student, how does this case going to be handled through the courts? And I didn't really have the best answers. And one thing about the family court and juvenile proceedings, that's a pretty closed environment.

00;04;41;09 - 00;04;59;03
Judge Melissa DuBose
So there's not a lot of I don't want to say transparency. It's just it's closed for obvious reasons. You want to protect our children who are going to those courts. But it also means there's a lot of kind of questions that people have about how that system works. And so it was at that point where I was the spark.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
It was, you know, I need to be an advocate in a way that extends beyond what I can do in the role as a teacher. So it was at that point that I applied to law school graduates, law school. I had moved from the charter school over to Central High School. And I got to tell you, the four years that it took me to get my law degree as an evening division student at Roger Williams Law School, a bit of a blur, being a full time teacher and a couple of kids came.

00;05;27;08 - 00;06;04;11
Judge Melissa DuBose
During that time was probably some of the best teaching that I've ever done. And I say that because I always will take the opportunity to thank the students at Central High School for really helping me to be successful the class management, classroom management in the assignments, the behavior. I had no issues those four years. The students really carried me through And I think it was important for them, for me to be successful and to become a lawyer because they wanted to have somebody who look like them also represent them in in the courtrooms.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
And so that was just, you know, a charge that I have. I get excited when I even think about that. I still am in touch with a lot of those students who I just thanks so much for giving me the support to get me through that step of those four years. And it was tough.

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Michael Hagan
So how could somebody become a judge? And what was your path to from becoming a lawyer to becoming a judge? What was that path like by trajectory?

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Judge Melissa DuBose
It was just kind of it's kind of funky. And people are always kind of thinking, how do you go from a public school teacher to, you know, district court judge? So I had to kind of go back a little bit, like, to be quite honest. So my first job as a as a lawyer, ironically enough, was as a special assistant attorney general under Patrick Lynch, serving as a juvenile prosecutor.

00;06;58;15 - 00;07;18;03
Judge Melissa DuBose
So you can imagine the sense of betrayal that a lot of my students felt when when they found out, like Mr. Bose, you know, you're supposed to be a public defender or a champion of ours. And here you are now prosecuting people just like the student that you loved in which who inspired you to go into law school.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
And it took a while. And it was important for them to understand it. And it's important for people to understand that the special role of the prosecutor, that role as gatekeeper, having the discretion to do justice is really what makes that a really powerful office. And so the experiences that I had at the attorney general's office kind of matched my love of teaching.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
And in a lot of ways, when I when I really understood the power of that office and how you really can not only give redress to victims of crime, but you can also make sure that due process is being followed and that people are actually getting their fair shake. And I took that oath very seriously as as a prosecutor.

00;08;05;06 - 00;08;35;10
Judge Melissa DuBose
So after being a prosecutor, my career conjured the sharp turn where I was recruited to being in-house counsel for a large French energy management company, which was completely in leftfield and had really no corporate experience. I'd been in the public sector for all of my adult working life, and it really unfortunately was for financial reasons, being, you know, parents were living in Providence and having two kids in in independent schools.

00;08;35;21 - 00;08;56;06
Judge Melissa DuBose
It really was kind of like, I have to make some sacrifice as I can tell you that that ten years that I was at Schneider Electric really kind of broadened my horizons in a way that I hadn't anticipated that So that was the first time. No. Going back, being a poor girl, growing up in Providence, you know, it was the first time I had a passport.

00;08;56;06 - 00;09;22;16
Judge Melissa DuBose
It was the first time that I had left the United States. I was interacting with folks that were completely different than anyone that I had previously had worked with. And it was really great. And so I did that work at Schneider Electric for about ten years. I was doing government compliance. I was doing some social and social some community service related projects through that corporation.

00;09;22;16 - 00;09;48;13
Judge Melissa DuBose
They were good corporate citizens. So I was able to kind of tap into my public service roots there at Schneider, which was great. And so while I was at Schneider, someone had mentioned that a vacancy that was opening on the district court, and they really encouraged me to apply. At that point, I like the work and I love the work that Schneider Electric.

00;09;48;24 - 00;10;10;04
Judge Melissa DuBose
But I wasn't at another transition point in my life where it was time to kind of get back to where I began, which was back in the community and so when there was a district court position that opened, it was kind of a no brainer for me. If you know anything about the district court, a lot of people refer to it as the People's Court because you're doing a little bit of everything.

00;10;10;13 - 00;10;34;22
Judge Melissa DuBose
It's again, it's the arraignments where people are coming before a judge to hear what charges are being levied against them. It's also where people go in for small claims if they want to try to be made whole. It's where your evictions happen. It's where civil domestic cases go. So it's really a court that meets people where they are at the early phase of the criminal justice system.

00;10;35;08 - 00;11;01;11
Judge Melissa DuBose
And that's where I wanted to be kind of goes back to teaching. And it made me feel like this is a place where I can get back to that love of being one to one, face to face at 11 scale with court uses and with citizens in one island. So I went through the process just mirrors the federal system in a way where there is a nomination a physical before a judicial nominating committee or where they vet candidates.

00;11;01;28 - 00;11;24;09
Judge Melissa DuBose
Once you may have passed through that phase, the governor makes a recommendation then there's advice and consent from the Judiciary Committee, and then it goes to the full Senate for a vote. And so that was a very long process. I think it took three but a year from the first time that I kind of raised my hand to being sworn in a very long path.

00;11;24;23 - 00;11;38;09
Judge Melissa DuBose
And, you know, not looking back, I mean, I'm still kind of every day when I when I enter into the courtroom, I am just so honored. And so I feel so blessed to be able to do this job.

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Michael Hagan
I'm interested in a term that you've used a couple of times so far in this conversation, not court users. I feel like a I'm so used to hearing terms, you know, and mostly from television in my case. But terms like defendant, plaintiff, prosecutor, you know, these different kind of parties that come to the court looking for, you know, they may have a different idea of what justice would look like.

00;12;02;06 - 00;12;10;18
Michael Hagan
You know, they all come to the court looking for justice. Could you say a little bit about your choice, your choice of the term court users? What why do you use that term specifically? Yeah, I.

00;12;10;18 - 00;12;33;02
Judge Melissa DuBose
Do. I do use that term because some of these court terms, they can be really loaded and I think when you think of the defendant, it conjures up many times this presumption that the person is culpable or that they're guilty. And so because what I've seen and what we realize when you're in the court every day, there are lots of different reasons why folks are coming into court.

00;12;33;21 - 00;12;55;19
Judge Melissa DuBose
Sometimes they may be witnesses, sometimes they may be somebody there who's there just to support somebody. They could be somebody was there as the litigant or the plaintiff who's actually suing somebody to be made whole. They all kind of when I approach them, they are all the same. These are people who are availing themselves of this system. Of our judicial system.

00;12;56;19 - 00;13;18;27
Judge Melissa DuBose
And so it's a term really of respect that I have, that we're here as public servants. And so you're going to use the court and they're coming in and they're using the court because they have a right to do that. And then where? And they have a right to have a judge who will perceive them that way, that this is an honor for me to be able to provide a service for the folks who are coming in before us.

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Michael Hagan
Thank you for explaining that term. That's really interesting. And it it it does it shows that your commitment to all parties who come to the court, you know, that it's not your role to be partial to any any given side, any given party that that that you're you're impartial in dispensing justice for all parties. In the same vein, you sit on the state's Committee for racial and Ethnic Fairness in the courts.

00;13;45;25 - 00;13;48;00
Michael Hagan
What is this committee's function and goal?

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Judge Melissa DuBose
Yeah. So the Committee on Racial and Ethnic Fairness in the Courts was a committee that was created by our chief judge Paul Seitel back in 20, 20. And it was in response to that horrendous summer of the kind of racial unrest that was in cities throughout the United States, including here in Rhode Island, particularly, particularly in response to the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and so many others.

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Judge Melissa DuBose
So the committee really started as an ad hoc group. At first there were a handful of judges of color who were meeting and kind of having to do a process that's happening. And how do we as judges respond? We have judicial canons that prevent judges from doing it, saying certain things. And so when we're living in an environment that is so politically charged, but at the same time, you know, as a black woman with two brown boys, you know, how do I navigate that as a judge without violating those judicial canons?

00;14;54;08 - 00;15;22;18
Judge Melissa DuBose
So I I've got to protest. I can't I can't do things like that. So the committee really formed out of that kind of kitchen table group of judges that were kind of processing and talking about it in a way that was a safe space. And then the chief judge issued what was a pretty remarkable statement from the Supreme Court, which was signed off by all five judges that did a couple of things.

00;15;22;29 - 00;15;48;13
Judge Melissa DuBose
It acknowledged the fact that there was systemic racism, that the courts are immune to that acknowledge that there's work to be done and that we needed to find those places where systemic racism may exist in our courts so we can be better. And it also was a call for judges to be introspective about how they make decisions and if implicit bias ever plays a role.

00;15;48;24 - 00;16;08;01
Judge Melissa DuBose
So it was a really bold, beautiful statement that I encourage anybody to kind of go on the court's website and pull that statement up is remarkable. So that statement really led to some momentum. And I think it was the chief judge's commitment to creating this committee to to formally look at all of those things. And so he formed this committee.

00;16;08;01 - 00;16;35;03
Judge Melissa DuBose
It's 12 judges and some court administrators. We serve on the Family Court, District Court, Superior Court, Supreme Court and Worker's Compensation Court. And we split ourselves up into three committees. And that's pretty much what our charge is. We want to identify areas where there may be systemic racism or disparate impact based on ethnicity in our courts. It's training judges to look at implicit bias and in their work and to be introspective.

00;16;36;00 - 00;17;01;08
Judge Melissa DuBose
And what I'm really excited about in the community that I chair, it's the Public Engagement Committee and the goal of this committee is to bridge the trust gap that I believe formed or has been forming between court users and judges. And the way that we do that is by getting judges off the bench and having real conversations with folks who use our systems use the court.

00;17;01;20 - 00;17;25;26
Judge Melissa DuBose
So it's been really exciting. We've had some exciting campaigns. You may have seen some grip the busses are driving around town with featuring faces of judges with some court, with some quotes, judges reflecting on what justice looks like when it works. There have been some TV ads and pieces that have been running that our committee is in partnership with the Center for Health and Justice Transformation put together.

00;17;26;15 - 00;17;54;24
Judge Melissa DuBose
So it's a really exciting committee. We've had we did a podcast we've done listening sessions. We've been tackling issues like cost in fines and the impact of those things on court users. And I have to tell you, this committee we meet every single week either in the full committee or subcommittee and making some really transformative steps in our courts that have gotten some great press, but more importantly have really been changing folks lives.

00;17;54;24 - 00;17;56;11
Judge Melissa DuBose
And I'm really excited about that.

00;17;56;13 - 00;18;09;15
Michael Hagan
So now you are a you're a proud alumna of the college and you am. And so I'm wondering and remind me, what did you study as an undergrad? I know you taught history in the public schools, but did you study politics or.

00;18;09;16 - 00;18;14;24
Judge Melissa DuBose
I was poli sci. I studied political science with kind of a history minor.

00;18;14;24 - 00;18;20;25
Michael Hagan
What what lessons and values from your undergraduate years at Providence College influence your work as a judge today?

00;18;20;29 - 00;18;50;10
Judge Melissa DuBose
Well, I can tell you, first of all, that I absolutely loved my time at Providence College. And it's so weird. And part of the reason why I love Providence so much so I grew up in the Mount Hope section of of Providence. And Providence College is probably maybe three miles away. So I when I moved, when I was accepted to Provost College and moved into Off-Campus Housing on Oakland, and it was like I was stepping into a different world and I might as well have been in a different state.

00;18;50;10 - 00;19;16;19
Judge Melissa DuBose
It was that different. And so I fell in love with Providence College. Probably the first day that I moved into that kind of crappy apartment on Oakland. Have and so I also was happy to be a part of its college. My freshman year was the year of when they went to the Final Four with Billy Donovan and Coach Pitino so it was a vibrancy and an energy on the campus that was unmatched until yesterday, which I'm really excited about.

00;19;17;22 - 00;20;01;23
Judge Melissa DuBose
I'm reminded often from my sons that, no, I am no longer a student at Providence College now. I cannot go to Eton Street for a keg party but it was it was that kind of vibe. And so it was a community spirit of love. That was that Providence College when I started. And I think a lot of it had to do with the energy around the basketball team, quite frankly, what the political science department at that time had to really just phenomenal our professors, Mark Udall, Mark Hyde, and, you know, who were just like legends and they saw something in me, which I hadn't really realized and never really thought of myself as an intellectual.

00;20;02;00 - 00;20;29;28
Judge Melissa DuBose
I was definitely a nerd. I'm naturally curious and you know, smart, but I didn't see myself as kind of being an intellectual. And so they really kind of drew that curiosity on me in a way that was really Life-Changing. And so a love of wisdom and knowledge and asking questions and asking the right questions was was a gift that I got from from that department, for sure.

00;20;30;15 - 00;20;53;23
Judge Melissa DuBose
I could say there was probably the love of my life. Sister Scully, who had a compassion and a forgiveness that was really, really special for me. And so those times when as students as all students, you know, you find yourself making decisions that you're not necessarily proud of. She was always a really safe person to kind of talk things through.

00;20;54;03 - 00;21;06;18
Judge Melissa DuBose
And she showed me a lot of love and support. So I think that compassion and love and intellectual curiosity are the things that still kind of drive me to today that goes way back to Providence College.

00;21;06;23 - 00;21;18;14
Michael Hagan
And you you began to mention your your youth in childhood in Providence, in the mountain Mount Hope neighborhood. But could you say a little bit more about about growing up in Providence, what that was like?

00;21;18;19 - 00;21;42;05
Judge Melissa DuBose
Yeah, it was exciting. You know, it's funny when you when you're poor, but you live in a community with family and support, you don't realize that you're poor. And so at that time in the on when I was up here in the 1970s, growing up in Mount Hope, that was a predominantly black neighborhood. I was that strip running right between Main Street and Hope Street.

00;21;42;09 - 00;21;44;07
Michael Hagan
So funny. That's where I live now. Yeah.

00;21;44;09 - 00;22;11;17
Judge Melissa DuBose
Yeah. I mean, that neighborhood was on believable. It really was. And I'm not over stating this. It really was its own little village and I loved growing up there. I loved being in the blizzard of 78 and Mount Hope and if you know those hills, they're still going down Lancaster Street, you know. So that was where I grew up and that's where my family was from for generations and generations.

00;22;11;17 - 00;22;30;18
Judge Melissa DuBose
And my mom was the youngest of 14 so you can imagine there's a lot of cousins and aunts and uncles that were all right there in that strip. We had a health center if we needed anything. My aunt worked at the health center we had a little corner store right there on the corner of Forest. I mean, there was everything you needed at the time we were going.

00;22;30;18 - 00;23;02;11
Judge Melissa DuBose
I was at Holy Name School at the other end so that was an easy walk to school. So I loved that growing up and my obsession when I, you know, holy name was was a challenge for me. And I go back and as much as I go because Sister Scully being so wonderful, I had a not so wonderful sister Priscilla when I was at Holy Name, who I think changed my life and were in a really great way when I was in third grade.

00;23;03;00 - 00;23;22;29
Judge Melissa DuBose
At Holy Name, I had to discover Priscilla, who was just just your picture, your worst stereotype of of an old nun you know? So I had I asked a question which I thought was a pretty innocuous question. I just ask. Well, like, where were or when were the dinosaurs? Were they before or after?

00;23;25;16 - 00;23;52;02
Judge Melissa DuBose
And it was infuriating. She was absolutely furious. And she called me a bold and brazen girl. And it was those words stuck and it hurt. And I was embarrassed. I was ashamed. I you know, didn't want to ask any more questions. I felt that she really hated me. And so at that point, it was that experience with her where I begged and begged and begged.

00;23;52;02 - 00;24;11;01
Judge Melissa DuBose
At that point, I was fixated on going to public school. I didn't want to be an unholy name that couldn't ask questions that the nuns hated me. So I thought and there were some wonderful nuns there and MS. Macy all if you're listening to this podcast, my fourth grade teacher, I adore you and I love you. And but she was tough for me.

00;24;11;09 - 00;24;30;17
Judge Melissa DuBose
And so I begged and begged and begged, and my parents finally relented. And so in sixth grade, I was able to leave Holy Name. And I started at Nathan Bishop. And I have to tell you, part of my love of Providence is not just the fact that we have this little village on Mount Hope walking in, going to Nathan Bishop.

00;24;30;17 - 00;24;56;28
Judge Melissa DuBose
Middle School was probably one of the greatest gifts that my parents could have given me at that time. They know I need the bishop is done by I'm going to have you have a group of students coming from various neighborhoods, all different, all coming together in the perfect, most diverse public school. You do not have that kind of diversity today, unfortunately, in the public schools.

00;24;57;14 - 00;25;27;17
Judge Melissa DuBose
So we have Portuguese kids from Fox Point. We have black kids from Mount Hope. We had Jewish students. There were around Savoy in the Maurice Morris, AB area or ST. And then we had white Irish kids coming in from the Summit neighborhood. It was just a really cool place to be. And it was the first time I got to take Spanish and it was just I loved Nathan Bishop, and I love that the diversity of Nathan Bishop.

00;25;27;28 - 00;25;54;00
Judge Melissa DuBose
That's why I love Providence. There are so many different special groups of people that we all kind of coexist. And it's parochial in the sense that there are these little safe hamlets, but it's also okay to kind of explore. And so I just don't know that you have a scale, a city that has the small scale, but such a large, vibrant community that has everybody.

00;25;54;03 - 00;25;55;17
Judge Melissa DuBose
So I love Providence.

00;25;56;06 - 00;26;12;12
Michael Hagan
You know, with with your teacher's words about you said that you were you were hurt when she called you bold and brazen. Have you come to have you come to me? I would imagine, as you went on, that that might almost be something that you would come to embrace in the sense that, I mean, oh.

00;26;12;12 - 00;26;13;09
Judge Melissa DuBose
That's a badge of honor.

00;26;13;09 - 00;26;16;04
Michael Hagan
The world needs more boldness and craziness like that.

00;26;16;10 - 00;26;41;20
Judge Melissa DuBose
So, yes, I take bold and brazen became kind of a badge of honor for me. And I definitely tease that when I write my great American novel or my biography it's going to be titled either The Bold and Brazen Girl, Ironic, right? Or it would be the black girl with the violin, which my sisters always laugh every time I say, Well, I love the image of it.

00;26;42;11 - 00;27;11;17
Judge Melissa DuBose
But I was that night, the bishop, one of the things that I love was not just that I could take Spanish. I joined the also the orchestra. And you don't see many kids of color at the time playing stringed instruments. You just didn't and I was the only black girl that was part of that orchestra. So if you can just picture me walking home with all my cousins and their rough and tumble going walk in, back up in working on chemistry.

00;27;11;23 - 00;27;30;11
Judge Melissa DuBose
And I had my little violin. It was like the really cool thing. So people would tease me out, you know? But I had great defenders. My cousins would have a landing happen to me. What? I was really proud of that violin. I wasn't very good in my mind. I was amazing. And then, sure, my sisters were like, You were horrible.

00;27;30;26 - 00;27;40;00
Judge Melissa DuBose
But I took a lot of pride in that violin because it took a stereotype and it took an image that was completely different. So I love that you're.

00;27;40;00 - 00;27;57;21
Michael Hagan
Very vocal about your love for Providence and your service in the courts and through organizations like the Rhode Island Foundation reflect a deep, deep commitment to the city and the state. So what are some of your favorite things today about Providence? What are some of your favorite things about life in the city?

00;27;58;01 - 00;28;22;03
Judge Melissa DuBose
Um, well, first of all, Providence, as you know, it's, it's ever changing. So there's always this kind of hubbub, you know, or restaurants or exhibits is always something kind of new popping up. So it's never it's not a stale city. And so there's always something to explore in Providence, which again, goes back to kind of the body can't see Renaissance City like, you know, this places you can take a lot of hits.

00;28;22;12 - 00;28;42;21
Judge Melissa DuBose
But I think that he was spot on when he kind of dubbed the city the Renaissance City, because it is just that. So I do everything. You're going to see me at the farmer's market, at the summit market. You're going to see me strolling through being a bird nerd. And so I'm a cemetery of my binoculars. I got into birding during the pandemic.

00;28;43;17 - 00;29;03;02
Judge Melissa DuBose
I'm going to shows downtown I really do enjoy the city. And so I like my users. I use the city. I must I'm a city user. So if there's something out there that's fun and happening, most likely I want to try to get a ticket. I want to try to get a seat at that table. It was a civic work.

00;29;03;11 - 00;29;26;06
Judge Melissa DuBose
You know, I'm on board and this is what I do. So the real foundation is a great board. I just recently appointed to that board as a designee of the what? I'm a Supreme Court, and they're doing great work, and they've allowed me to kind of meet interact with folks who are doing really great charitable work throughout the state and the great stewards of folks money and endowments.

00;29;26;06 - 00;29;45;27
Judge Melissa DuBose
So I love the work on the Warren the Foundation. So to the extent that I can, I will serve on boards and commissions. I'm recently going to be any advisory board for the Black Historic Circle Society Heritage Society. Excuse me, I'm excited about that. We have Law Day coming up. So I want to be in classrooms to students.

00;29;46;12 - 00;30;06;07
Judge Melissa DuBose
So I'm on the board a lot. Graduate law school. I mentor students, so I take students around town so they can fall in love with the city. My goal being is to increase the pipeline, and I want students to stay here and I want them to see and love the city as much as I do and drop roots here.

00;30;06;09 - 00;30;11;27
Judge Melissa DuBose
And so I do a lot of work to kind of cheerlead the city to try to convince students to stay here.

00;30;12;01 - 00;30;13;28
Michael Hagan
Well, thank you for all you do for our community.

00;30;14;09 - 00;30;15;03
Judge Melissa DuBose
Of course.

00;30;15;15 - 00;30;39;22
Michael Hagan
Changing gears a little bit. One of the biggest stories in the news and and happenings in the judicial world this year is Justice Stephen Breyer is retirement from the United States Supreme Court. President Biden, of course, was met with much praise, as well as some criticism when he pledged, and I quote The person I nominate to replace Justice Breyer will be somebody with extraordinary qualifications, character, experience and integrity.

00;30;39;29 - 00;30;52;17
Michael Hagan
And they will be the first black woman nominated to the United States Supreme Court and quote, With the history of the court and the question of representation and mind, can you describe the significance of the president's pledge to nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court?

00;30;53;03 - 00;31;19;23
Judge Melissa DuBose
We think it's it's enormous. You know, one of the things that, you know, the danger of causing the the nomination as it will be a black woman. There is some you alluded to it. The danger in that is that there are some people, not all, but to kind of see a highly qualified and black woman as be mutually exclusive, that they're in some way are different.

00;31;19;23 - 00;31;42;12
Judge Melissa DuBose
So that if you're highly qualified and you're not a black women or if you're a black woman, you're not highly qualified. So I do think that there is some danger if you lead with color and not qualifications. But the quote that you cited, I think, just does a couple of things. It leads with the qualifications and then it follows with and will also be somebody who happens to be a black woman.

00;31;42;22 - 00;32;04;29
Judge Melissa DuBose
I think it's enormous and I think it's really, really important. One of the questions I was asked when I was going through the nomination process is why diversity matters. And it does. And it's not just diversity of color or language or socioeconomics. All of those things matter when you are different and when you have a different life experience.

00;32;05;20 - 00;32;27;18
Judge Melissa DuBose
And not all black folks aren't monolithic. We're not all the same But we do have a unique perspective, and that's a perspective that I believe is really important to include in the deliberative process. And so when it comes to the Supreme Court, where it is a deliberative court, it's incredibly important that the judges represent a wide range of worldviews.

00;32;28;18 - 00;32;48;28
Judge Melissa DuBose
So I'm really I'm really excited about it. I do see the danger, and it bothers me sometimes. I do think it demeans some of the candidates when people assume, well, the only reason why you're going to get this position is because you're black. And I think that may be an unforced error on the president's part for being so explicit.

00;32;49;25 - 00;33;08;11
Judge Melissa DuBose
But on the other hand, as a black woman, you know, it feels great to have someone say, you know, we see something special in you as a black woman. We we appreciate that. You do have a perspective that should be part of this conversation. And a part of the table.

00;33;08;13 - 00;33;24;04
Michael Hagan
So in terms of traits and qualifications that are most becoming of a Supreme Court nominee, are these are these traits or qualifications in any way different from those that make a good judge in general? What makes a Supreme Court justice different than another kind of judge?

00;33;24;23 - 00;34;01;04
Judge Melissa DuBose
Yeah, I mean, it's different to the extent when I do. I'm not deliberating over constitutional questions. So the Supreme Court is really it's a it's it's our Supreme Court. It is our deliberative highest deliberative body, which is answering and weighing in on really consequential case, consequential matters of constitutional proportions. So it's enormously important and it's incredibly different. One of the things that we do as a district court judge, like I said, it's it's you're rolling up your sleeve it's your your one on one interaction with litigants on the appellate level.

00;34;01;12 - 00;34;30;01
Judge Melissa DuBose
And the parties to the case aren't necessarily appearing before the court. They're not they have advocates who are who are arguing a position to argue before the justices. One of the traits that I think would be the most important for us, the court judge is the ability to convince in order the ability to persuade your colleagues that they're thinking on something they need is different or I'm sorry.

00;34;30;10 - 00;34;57;22
Judge Melissa DuBose
One of the qualities is that to be able to persuade your colleagues or your fellow justices that their position isn't necessarily the correct one. And so I think when I think of the Supreme Court, I think of really great persuaders in that they're able to bring their colleagues along, I think is incredibly important. To have faith to our Constitution.

00;34;57;23 - 00;35;22;24
Judge Melissa DuBose
I think it's incredibly important that justice in questions of justice is a living I believe my own personal philosophy when it comes to the Supreme Court is that a constitution is not a dead document. I do believe that it's a living, breathing document. That our fathers could not have foreseen or conceived of things like cyber and those types of things.

00;35;22;24 - 00;35;49;14
Judge Melissa DuBose
And so there is some dynamism of the Constitution that that is built in. And so I like to think that our justice will be someone who has a more expansive view of the Constitution in that they can recognize the applicability and how constitutional principles that are wedded in tradition apply. And are still relevant today, but without being so static that it's immovable.

00;35;50;13 - 00;36;26;10
Judge Melissa DuBose
So that's my own personal philosophy on it. I'm excited for it. But I said that the judgment that I do, it's that your rough and tumble, that's your every day. It's fast paced. We're making decisions quickly. If somebody is appearing before us, we're making really fast rulings. So our judgment is kind of in real time. As opposed to the time that the Supreme Court or appellate courts really take, looking into an issue, reading those briefs, reading them memorandum of law, and coming up with thoughtful decisions is different.

00;36;26;24 - 00;36;31;09
Michael Hagan
What advice would you give to current students and young alumni who are considering a career in law?

00;36;31;25 - 00;36;50;27
Judge Melissa DuBose
I would say yes. Yes, and yes. But, you know, the law is not just being a lawyer or a judge. There are lots of different entry points into the legal system. And that goes from court interpreters. This is a ton of different things that you could do as the legal that is within the realm of legal. That's not necessarily being a lawyer.

00;36;51;09 - 00;37;15;14
Judge Melissa DuBose
Having said that, I always think if there's something where you are passionate about, I would encourage everyone to pursue a legal career. I'm trying to get my sons there like. Absolutely not. It's special. And to be able to be an advocate and to be able to kind of represent that third branch of government is is it's an honor.

00;37;15;22 - 00;37;42;29
Judge Melissa DuBose
And so I would tell any student to seriously consider what their passion is and if it's anything that has to do with the legal to really explore it. And I would and explore it here in Rhode Island because we have a rich bench a bar. But I'd like to see younger people getting in this business and more diverse of folks getting into this line of work.

00;37;42;29 - 00;38;13;12
Judge Melissa DuBose
So I would encourage anyone to pursue a career in law if that's something that they were passionate about. I would not suggest that anybody go into a career in law because of, you know, the money is that that's not that wouldn't should motivate anybody to do any job. To be quite frank. But if you're passionate about justice and environmental fairness and cyber and there's so many areas of law that we don't even know exist yet, it really is a place where you could tap a new niche and make a great contribution to society.

00;38;13;21 - 00;38;33;28
Michael Hagan
So we've mentioned we've mentioned the Friars basketball team a couple of times over the course of this conversation. But now I've got to ask you, Judge DuBose, for a verdict. I, I need to know, in your opinion, you know, the discourse around this team has been, you know, are they lucky or are they good? What? All right. So I need to know your verdict.

00;38;33;28 - 00;38;35;02
Michael Hagan
Lucky, good or both.

00;38;35;18 - 00;38;59;27
Judge Melissa DuBose
I think that this team is just good. I don't think luck has anything to do with it. I think Coach Cooley is absolutely brilliant. I also think and this is not a coincidence. I think that the players aren't playing at this high caliber partly because a fire nation. I think that the fans in the students right now are propelling.

00;39;00;04 - 00;39;22;21
Judge Melissa DuBose
And so these guys are playing and tapping into another gear as they're playing on a next level. I am so proud of these students showing up and turning out for these games. I get chills. When I saw the Taylor Swift clip, I was like, this is like the best thing ever, ever, ever, ever. If Coach Cooley doesn't get coach of the year, there is something fundamentally wrong.

00;39;23;19 - 00;39;41;14
Judge Melissa DuBose
So this team is this team is definitely special. You know, I loved the early, you know, my Billy Donovan team back in the 86. I think it was but this team is now kind of that next handoff pass the baton. These two guys are just different. I'm feeling a final form. I'm feeling them taking.

00;39;41;14 - 00;39;58;29
Michael Hagan
It and I think that's a judgment that we can all get behind. So thank you very much. So, Judge DuBose, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your afternoon to speak with us. I will say for our listeners who, you know, they don't get to see the sausage getting made.

00;39;59;04 - 00;40;16;14
Michael Hagan
Judge DuBose is an incredibly in high demand woman and this is that phone call. She is, you know, so it's we really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to have this conversation with us. Our listeners really appreciate it. I've enjoyed it tremendously. So thank you very, very much for joining us today.

00;40;16;25 - 00;40;29;03
Judge Melissa DuBose
It's been a lot of fun. And thank you, Michael. I appreciate the opportunity Christopher, thank you for your work behind the scenes. Isn't that a lot of fun? I'm looking forward to sharing the final product and go friars.

00;40;29;17 - 00;40;43;07
Michael Hagan
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