00;00;00;27 - 00;00;25;03
Joseph Carr
Welcome to the Providence College Podcast. I'm Joe Carr and our producer is Chris Judge. To say we are excited to welcome today's guest would be quite the understatement among the legends of Providence College's storied basketball tradition. Lenny Wilkins stands above the rest. A 1960 PC graduate when he played 15 NBA seasons nine as an All-Star and three as a player coach.

00;00;25;06 - 00;00;46;16
Joseph Carr
He went on to become one of the most successful NBA coaches of all time, and won gold medals as both the head coach of the 1996 Olympic team and as an assistant coach on the 1992 Olympic Dream team. For all those accomplishments, he is the only person inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in three categories.

00;00;46;19 - 00;00;54;19
Joseph Carr
Lenny Wilkins joins us from his home today in Washington State. Thank you so much, Lenny. We really appreciate your time and looking forward to having a chat with you.

00;00;54;21 - 00;00;59;03
Lenny Wilkens
Well, thank you very much, Joe. I'm looking forward to it. So it should be fun.

00;00;59;05 - 00;01;06;14
Joseph Carr
This is an exciting time of year for us NBA fans. With the playoffs getting underway, do you follow the game closely? Do you enjoy the playoffs?

00;01;06;17 - 00;01;25;12
Lenny Wilkens
I enjoy the playoffs. I can't say that I enjoy all the teams today because they don't play defense the way we were taught to play. But but there are some exciting teams and to play in new format, just start it. So that's interesting and I'm looking forward to the playoffs.

00;01;25;13 - 00;01;36;25
Joseph Carr
So in Washington State, the two closest teams view would be Portland and Golden State. Right. So is it true that you've known Steph Curry since he was a small child because didn't his his dad, Dale, play for you in Cleveland?

00;01;36;27 - 00;01;56;23
Lenny Wilkens
Yes. They'll play for me. And Steph and his brother used to come in before practice and shootaround and they were always on the court. So it doesn't surprise me that they turn out to be Tyler Blair as they had. And Dell was just a wonderful human being and and he could really shoot the ball as well.

00;01;56;25 - 00;02;23;03
Joseph Carr
Wow. Steph broke our hearts as Celtics fans in New England last year with unbelievable performance in the finals. So you tip your hat. He was he's such a great player and that lineage certainly is a factor in that. I've been watching the Bill Russell documentary on Netflix, Lenny, and there's a point where the journalist William Rhoden talks about the NBA and NBA in the 1960s when you were one of the stars.

00;02;23;05 - 00;02;39;05
Joseph Carr
He said that that's when pro basketball started to become part of the sports mainstream and that it was about to take off. When you think of it in that context, do you feel a sense of pride in what the NBA has become as a major part of the sports landscape these days?

00;02;39;08 - 00;03;08;12
Lenny Wilkens
Well, yes, I do. I feel that Bill Russell was one of the key guys in helping the NBA grow, develop. You know, when I came into the NBA there, they had kind of an unwritten rule. They only had so many minorities on the team. They would deny that. But but I lived it and saw it, you know. In fact, I was drafted by the Hawks.

00;03;08;12 - 00;03;31;13
Lenny Wilkens
I wasn't very happy about it because when I was a junior in college, we played St Louis University and you couldn't eat in the restaurants downtown. You know, they had a hotel where we stayed. We could eat there, but but you couldn't go out and go to a restaurant. And so when I was drafted by the Hawks, I wasn't real happy because I knew what the city was like.

00;03;31;15 - 00;04;03;06
Lenny Wilkens
And at that time, the Hawks, they had two minorities on the team. A guy named Samuel Hugo Green was the only one, really. And then I was drafted and they also drafted a kid named Fred Lahore who went to was from the Bay Area. And Fred would always tell everybody that he was Mexican. I mean, I looked more Spanish than he did, but whatever he wanted, that was his problem to deal with.

00;04;03;07 - 00;04;24;22
Lenny Wilkens
But I watched Saint Louis changed, you know, after my first year of pro ball. A lot of people don't realize that I had to go on active duty as I was in ROTC. I was a second lieutenant and so I missed a year and a half. And when I came out, things were starting to change a little.

00;04;24;25 - 00;04;28;15
Joseph Carr
So when you came back, that would be the 1963 64 Seasons.

00;04;28;15 - 00;04;33;20
Lenny Wilkens
If they do. Yes, Right. 63. Right. Right.

00;04;33;23 - 00;04;51;08
Joseph Carr
The 1960s and seventies experience for black NBA players, obviously particular challenges. And those are covered extensively. To reference that again in that Bill Russell documentary. What can you tell us about the prejudice and discrimination that you did face during your playing career?

00;04;51;10 - 00;05;22;02
Lenny Wilkens
Well, you know, the thing was, is that I was going to show people that and I learned this growing up. I'm to show them that I'm as good as they are. I don't want them to give me anything. All I want is the opportunity to do it myself. And and I remember when I got out of the service, you know, I was dating my wife at the time, and we got married just before I got out of the service.

00;05;22;04 - 00;05;49;11
Lenny Wilkens
And so she came to Saint Louis with me, and I went back there. We lived in an apartment for a while, and then we bought a house and we bought a house in an area called Moline Acres. And and during that summer, it was a very repossessed home. A buddy of mine, we went in and sand that the floors we painted, we did everything to really spruce it up.

00;05;49;13 - 00;06;13;23
Lenny Wilkens
And when we moved in for sale, signs went up everywhere in the neighborhood. But and some of them went down. Some people moved. Some saw that we weren't going to tear the place apart. And but there was a guy that lived next door to me was funny because when he got out of his car, we all had carports in that neighborhood.

00;06;13;25 - 00;06;34;24
Lenny Wilkens
And when he would get out of his car, he back out. So he wouldn't have to look at us because I happened to be out front one time with my little girl was just starting to walk. And so when I saw that, it, you know, I couldn't believe it, but I decided that it was in the off season during the summer.

00;06;34;26 - 00;06;56;08
Lenny Wilkens
I was going to be out there at 6:00 every evening when he got home, so he had to back out of his car. And but and so it was, you know, but eventually we moved before he did. So, you know, we found something bigger, nicer that my wife wanted and we decided to move.

00;06;56;10 - 00;07;24;22
Joseph Carr
Was there a point? So obviously historical context. We're talking about the sixties. So this is the be the beginning part of the civil rights movement of the 1960s civil rights movement. Vietnam is going on and all the societal unrest. But in the context of your your team experience, was there a point where you became sort of a mentor to younger black players on your way to becoming a coach, and how did you counsel them in terms of dealing with with these kinds of scenarios?

00;07;24;24 - 00;07;50;22
Lenny Wilkens
Well, with young guys, you know, I, I tried to encourage them that you have to be as good as you can be. You know, go out there, work hard, be ready to play at all times so that there was no excuse to say that, well, he has a bad attitude or she has a bad attitude. You know, go out there and show that you can compete no matter what the circumstances are.

00;07;50;24 - 00;08;18;05
Lenny Wilkens
And I have to say this, you know, on the horse, we had some guys that weren't overly friendly, but the star of the team was a guy named Bob Pettit, and he was friendly. And Bob went out of his way to help me make the adjustment. And I you know, I thought that was amazing because he was from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, you know, and I'm sure he didn't spend a lot of time around minorities.

00;08;18;08 - 00;08;42;29
Lenny Wilkens
But Bob was a great player. He came ready to play night in and night out. And he and a guy named Cliff Hagan. I knew that if I could get along with them and I wasn't worried about the rest of them. And so so I just tried to pass on to young people that, you know, basketball was one part of our lives.

00;08;43;01 - 00;09;17;22
Lenny Wilkens
But when you go on, you're going to meet all kinds of people and you need to glean from these people what it takes to be a great human being, what it takes to be able to, you know, live in this world and make adjustments, you know, And so that was important to me that was instilled in me from my parish priest when I was growing up, a guy named Tom Mannion, who used to always say to me, you know, who promised you if I got upset, you know, and he was right.

00;09;17;23 - 00;09;41;26
Lenny Wilkens
No one promised you anything. All I want is an opportunity. But the other role model, because my dad had died when I was five. The other role model I had was Jackie Robinson. I was a big Dodger fan, a big baseball fan before basketball. And I used to go to Ebbets Field all the time, watch the Dodgers. In fact, my best friend who grew up in my neighborhood was a guy named Tommy Davis.

00;09;41;28 - 00;10;08;21
Lenny Wilkens
And Tommy went on to be a great Dodger, won the batting crown two years in a row when he came up, you know. So Tommy is one of the guys that kept pushing me to continue to play basketball because we used to compete against each other, you know? And so I went out, saw my high school team, and I was number 15.

00;10;08;24 - 00;10;31;19
Lenny Wilkens
You know, this is probably when I was a sophomore and I was number 15, didn't get to play much. So I dropped off course. I had a little job that I worked at and and I wasn't completely sold on basketball, but my junior year on the playgrounds, I began to really like the game and I competed against guys.

00;10;31;19 - 00;10;56;27
Lenny Wilkens
One of those guys lived right around the corner. Me, for me was a guy named Vinny Cohen who went to Syracuse University and was an all-American and and I used to compete against him on the playgrounds. And that's when I realized that, yeah, I could do this. And with Tommy's encouragement and I went out, saw the high school team my senior year, and made the starting five.

00;10;57;00 - 00;11;03;00
Joseph Carr
If you could compete with an all-American on the Brooklyn playgrounds in the summer, you were probably headed in the right direction, right?

00;11;03;02 - 00;11;05;00
Lenny Wilkens
I think so, yes.

00;11;05;03 - 00;11;12;20
Joseph Carr
Tommy Davis, a great player in those six early sixties, two mid-Sixties Dodgers teams. Right. A couple of World Series champions in their 66.

00;11;12;23 - 00;11;13;17
Lenny Wilkens
000 year.

00;11;13;17 - 00;11;14;25
Joseph Carr
Career. What a career.

00;11;14;27 - 00;11;38;04
Lenny Wilkens
Yeah. He won the batting ground that and you know, he tried us no slide into second base broke his ankle in three places and unfortunate for him but the designated hitter came in and that saved him because you know the ankle he couldn't run like he used to, but he could still hit he could still hit the ball.

00;11;38;06 - 00;11;56;18
Joseph Carr
I'd like to go back to talking about Bill Russell for just a moment, if you don't mind. Lenny, the Celtics legend, as our audience knows, died last summer at the age of 88. The league's honoring his contributions throughout this season. All the players wearing a patch with the number six on their uniforms, which is a wonderful thing. What was your relationship like with Bill Russell?

00;11;56;21 - 00;12;24;26
Lenny Wilkens
Well, I got to meet Bill when I was in college. It was kind of interesting. You know, I. I actually saw that Madison Square Garden. They had a College All-Star Game for seniors. And Bill Russell played on the West team. And I was there watching the high school, watching Boys High play because I graduated in mid year and couldn't, you know, play in the finals.

00;12;24;28 - 00;12;56;12
Lenny Wilkens
But I got to meet Bill. They were trying. Bill was the guardian to a young player named Jimmy had not who they were trying to get to go to Providence College and. And they recommended Red Auerbach recommend at Providence because John Mulaney had a relationship with with the Celtics. He knew them. And Joe Mulaney was my coach. And so Joe asked if I would show Jimmy had not around.

00;12;56;15 - 00;13;20;03
Lenny Wilkens
So I did. He was 610. We never seen about outside, you know, And and I took him out, took him to dinner, you know, show the morale, encouraged him to come to Providence, told him about the school, and Jimmy decided that he would. Now, we never played together because freshman had to play freshman ball back then. So he was a freshman and I was a senior.

00;13;20;05 - 00;13;58;02
Lenny Wilkens
And Bill Russell thanked me for that. And when I became a pro, you know, whenever we came in to Boston, he would invite me over for dinner and stuff like that because of Jimmy. And and and at that time, Bill would go out of his way to help us realize that we should not let anybody intimidate us, that he was going to stand up for guys, help them and and that, I think also helped me to become a player rep because I wasn't afraid to speak my mind because I wanted to do something that would help the players.

00;13;58;04 - 00;14;26;15
Lenny Wilkens
And back then, we really needed guys for collective bargaining to help improve. Per Diem was very low salaries. We didn't have a pension at the time, you know, some teams had it, but eventually we threatened to strike an All-Star Game in 62 and we got a pension plan after that because we met in Boston and we threatened to strike the game.

00;14;26;17 - 00;14;49;09
Lenny Wilkens
We went into one locker room and we weren't going to come out and the NBA was just getting their TV contract back and they didn't want to lose that. So they agreed. Walter Kennedy was the new commissioner. They agreed that we'd have a pension plan by June, everything. So we came out and played the game.

00;14;49;11 - 00;14;57;00
Joseph Carr
So I know he's no exaggeration to say that Bill Russell revolutionized the sport either, correct? I mean, the way he played defense.

00;14;57;00 - 00;15;14;28
Lenny Wilkens
Yes. Yeah. You you had to be aware of Bill if you drove to the basket. And I was one of those guys that drove to the basket. So I you know, and if I saw Bill go into a crouch, I'd let it go. I mean, I could shoot that little hook, a little runner. And but he was he was an incredible defensive player.

00;15;15;00 - 00;15;29;18
Lenny Wilkens
You know, his teammates respected everybody. The funny guy, when he wanted to be. And when he came, we got to know each other. So it was a good relationship.

00;15;29;21 - 00;15;47;19
Joseph Carr
Let's talk a little bit more about your Providence College days. You arrived here in 1956 from Brooklyn, and the story of your path to peace was interesting. It involves Father Mannion and Joe Mulaney's father and kind of a collection of things that happened that caused you to end up here at ABC.

00;15;47;21 - 00;16;24;26
Lenny Wilkens
Well, you know, I only played a half a year high school ball, so nobody really saw me because I graduated in mid-year and I and then in the high school championships I couldn't play because my class, I graduated in January and so but that summer I was eligible for, for all the high school summer summer league tournaments. And Father Mannion wrote to Father Bagley, who was the he was the head of the sports department.

00;16;24;26 - 00;16;25;23
Joseph Carr
Athletic director.

00;16;25;23 - 00;16;52;07
Lenny Wilkens
Athletic director. And I wrote to him and told them about me. And they thought he thought I deserved a scholarship, you know, because there's no way I could afford to pay. And so Joe Mulaney, when he came down for the high school tournaments, talked to me, gave me a brochure, I filled it out, sent it in, and they got it in the brochure.

00;16;52;07 - 00;17;19;08
Lenny Wilkens
And so Joe invited me out two days to have these workouts. They invited about it, seem like it to me, were like 200 kids came out there and the first guy got his hands on the ball, shot the ball. So I didn't think that I had a very good workout and I had mailed my application in, but I didn't hear from Providence at all.

00;17;19;10 - 00;17;48;08
Lenny Wilkens
And then there was the summer tournament was the Flushing YMCA, and I played in that tournament and all the high school, all Americans were playing in that tournament as well. And then I played for the Flushing Y. Well, we had a good team. We won. I got the Most Valuable Player and Joe Mulaney's dad was at the game and so he called Joe and he said, This can't be the same kid that wants to go to Providence, you know?

00;17;48;10 - 00;18;13;27
Lenny Wilkens
And next thing you know, I hear from Providence, I got a scholarship. I mean, I wasn't worried about my grades. My grades were good. So that didn't, you know, disturb me. But I heard from them and I went to Providence. It was a great, great happening for me because it was a great school. But also we had a heck of a freshman team.

00;18;13;29 - 00;18;42;01
Lenny Wilkens
We were 23 and all my freshman year. I mean, it was unbelievable. And we lost some guys who they booted out because they didn't want to class. But but it was a great start because being 23 and then the next year you could play basketball. And we moved up and we had some great experiences because we were invited to night and everybody wanted to go to that night.

00;18;42;07 - 00;19;18;11
Lenny Wilkens
Back then, no one wanted to go to the NCAA tournament. It was just crazy like that because that night was held in New York at Madison Square Garden, Mecca of basketball, you know, And so we got invited twice. And then by end of year, I was the MVP of the night. And then two or three weeks after that, they had the College All-Star Game and Jerry West and I got the call MVP of the game, the East.

00;19;18;11 - 00;19;28;24
Lenny Wilkens
We beat the West, which had Oscar Robertson and Bunch Darrel and off a bunch of guys. But it was just a great experience, you know? So I was real happy about that.

00;19;28;26 - 00;19;50;25
Joseph Carr
You're in good company in that All-Star Game. Wow. Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Lenny Wilkens and Darryl Ramos. They're all in off by an incredible group of NBA superstars, legends of the game, all on the court at the same time. So the 1969 team, when you were the MVP of the tournament, that team advanced to the championship game, correct?

00;19;50;27 - 00;20;26;07
Lenny Wilkens
Yes. Yes. We we lost you know, I think and I don't remember it. I found out toward the end of the game, but it was a close game and we lost it, which was disappointing. But the next year we won it. But the great experience was that being MVP with Jerry West. It was a great experience and I did not get selected for the U.S. Olympic team in that year.

00;20;26;09 - 00;20;54;01
Lenny Wilkens
And, you know, the New York writers blasted the Olympic Committee because they felt I should have been on. I thought I should have been on it. I would have liked to. And I got a letter from Peyton all apologizing for me not being on the team. And he also said that if there was if someone got hurt, I'd be the first alternate.

00;20;54;01 - 00;21;14;18
Lenny Wilkens
So I dropped him and I talked to him. I met him and I said, Pete, if I got hurt, I want to tell you, you know, because that's how important it was. The Olympic team at that time. And I saw other guys on the team, and I think that I should have been on it. But stuff happens and you move on.

00;21;14;20 - 00;21;28;22
Lenny Wilkens
I wasn't bitter by it. It was an experience and and look what happened years later. I was assistant coach. One year I was the head coach the next year. Yeah. So it was a great experience.

00;21;28;22 - 00;21;51;07
Joseph Carr
You ended up with two gold medals after all. So you go right. Well, it's no exaggeration to say that Joe Mulaney's father changed the course of Providence College basketball history when he showed up at that game, because, as you described it, the teams that you were on that you led advanced to night tournaments. But the program then had been built to the point where they would win two, and it's 61 and 63.

00;21;51;07 - 00;22;04;29
Joseph Carr
Shortly after you left. But some of your teammates were involved in that. Can you give us a sense of what the games were like on campus and what the atmosphere was like around fire basketball in the three years you played on the varsity?

00;22;05;02 - 00;22;27;23
Lenny Wilkens
Well, I'll tell you would be, you know, it began they had a good team. The hockey team was probably a little bit better than us. But and I liked hockey, too, because I used to watch my roommate my first year. It was a guy named John Turner, and his family owned Turner Fisheries, but he was a heck of a hockey player.

00;22;27;23 - 00;23;01;07
Lenny Wilkens
But he loved sport and so he would come to the basketball games. I'd go to the hockey games, yeah, but as our freshman team grew and we started to get better and better, the people started showing up and all of a sudden the freshman games were so loud that hadn't happened before. So basketball became huge on campus. I mean, everybody wanted to see the Friars play and we had great support.

00;23;01;07 - 00;23;26;09
Lenny Wilkens
It was just a great time to be at Providence. Well, I had on the varsity a guy who played a year behind me was Johnny Egan, who was a great, great player in New England, you know, a kid named Dick Weil and John Woods, Timmy Monahan. We had we had some really good players and they came to play.

00;23;26;11 - 00;23;34;22
Lenny Wilkens
The fans loved it. I mean, and all our games were sold out on campus. I mean, you couldn't find a seat anywhere.

00;23;34;25 - 00;23;55;28
Joseph Carr
But it's still the same today. You know, they're not on campus, but the fan support is incredible. Johnny Egan, let's talk about him a little bit. Sadly, another person who has died within the past year but at an all time Friar Great had himself a really solid NBA career and somebody I know who was your friend, really a lifelong friend, right?

00;23;56;01 - 00;24;21;27
Lenny Wilkens
Yes. Yeah. We became close friends and and we stayed in touch with each other, you know, I mean, he came into the pros and, you know, and played pro ball. I used to have a big dinner golf tournament here every summer. I would raise funds for the Odessa Brown Children's Clinic, and Johnny would come every year and, you know, participate in the dinner in a tournament.

00;24;21;27 - 00;24;44;24
Lenny Wilkens
And it was fun. So we knew each other. And sadly, you know, I had we'd stay in touch. I talked to him one time and he was doing fine. And then the next thing I know, he had slipped and fall, fall. And he was in the hospital. And I talked with his son and he had told me and we thought it was going to be all right, but he wasn't.

00;24;44;24 - 00;24;58;05
Lenny Wilkens
And I forget exactly what happened. But from that fall in the hospital, he passed away. And, you know, it just really to real time.

00;24;58;07 - 00;25;21;08
Joseph Carr
You know, we talk even today about PC being a place where we create relationships. And so that's the relationship that you built over the course of decades. And there were were many others. But there's someone else I'd like you to talk about because I know you had a a made a meaningful connection with Father Robert Morris. The first time we met in person was 2015 when you came to visit him at PC shortly before before he died.

00;25;21;11 - 00;25;36;09
Joseph Carr
But Father Morris had such an impact on so many people, as so many Dominicans do. But within the basketball community and the student population of of that time, it seems like he was really at the center of an awful lot. Tell us more about about Father Morris.

00;25;36;09 - 00;26;21;21
Lenny Wilkens
Well, he was he was a huge fan, but he you know, he was a fan of P.C., period. He talked to the young students, encourage them, you know, let them know that they could achieve, they could make a difference no matter what it was that they were doing. And and I remember whenever he saw me and John together, he'd he'd say, there goes to a good man, two good men that would make great strides, you know, And but this wonderful guy, he and his father, there was another place he used to hang out with, and we'd see them all the time because they would come to the games and big supporters, you know, And but,

00;26;21;23 - 00;26;45;14
Lenny Wilkens
you know, I think that's what made PC so great was not only the students that weren't there, but the people that taught and worked there, the priests, the lay people. It was a wonderful school. I enjoyed it. To me, I would say I I'd not be where I am today if it wasn't for Providence College.

00;26;45;16 - 00;27;06;15
Joseph Carr
In some ways, Providence College wouldn't be where it is today without Lenny Wilkins, especially when it comes to basketball. So I think that the feeling is mutual for sure. Speaking of contemporary basketball, do you draw some satisfaction from the success the program is having now with regular NCAA tournament appearances, national rankings and so forth?

00;27;06;17 - 00;27;32;14
Lenny Wilkens
Oh, I think it's wonderful. I think it's grown a lot. You can't believe and I watch my son was in town and the Final four we watched here in my house. Anyway, some of his friends came over and we had a chance to watch it. And then, you know, you get to know people over the years, a great experience I had at Providence, we played Gonzaga.

00;27;32;16 - 00;28;05;20
Lenny Wilkens
My junior year and they had a guy on their team who led the nation in scoring, a guy named Frank Burgess. And and when I got here, I got to reconnect with Frank. He was from Tacoma, Washington, and he had played at Gonzaga, you know, So it was fun to see him get to know him again, you know, And he work for a just guy named Jack Tanner down in Tacoma.

00;28;05;22 - 00;28;30;16
Lenny Wilkens
And but Frank was a wonderful man. And it was fun because I always had to decide the best player on the other team. And I took pride in that, you know? And I remember playing Frank and guarding him. I think I held him to 12 points and, you know, he had been averaging 30 something. And and I remember toward the end of the game, he turned to me and he said, Who are you?

00;28;30;18 - 00;28;42;20
Lenny Wilkens
And I said, Nobody. But, you know, it was funny how later on here I in out here in Seattle and I get to meet up with him again and got to know.

00;28;42;22 - 00;29;02;21
Joseph Carr
But were you I'm the guy who just held you to 12 points. That's who I am, right? I'm happy to give you an on the ground report about the status of things with the basketball program, actually, the men's and women's programs right now, people are very excited about the direction of things. With the new coach is Kim English, the men's coach, and Aaron Bass, the women's coach.

00;29;02;23 - 00;29;16;27
Joseph Carr
It's been a very exciting and interesting time, especially in the past few weeks. So things are things are still trending in a very positive direction, which is so important to the school is, you know, basketball is at the center of a lot of things.

00;29;16;29 - 00;29;37;02
Lenny Wilkens
It really is. And I would love to come back there one time. But, you know, it stopped a lot of things because when I used to go back for the Hall of Fame, I always stop down in Providence just to say hello to everybody and and then COVID stop that. So but things are getting better now, so who knows?

00;29;37;02 - 00;29;39;03
Lenny Wilkens
Maybe I'll get a chance to come to a game.

00;29;39;08 - 00;30;09;24
Joseph Carr
Well, before we would. We'd all be delighted if that were to come about, and it would be a lot of fun. I'd like to talk a little bit more about your professional playing days, Lenny, if you don't mind, your professional career. It was remarkable both for longevity and for consistency. I was looking at your career stats the other day and averaged in double figures every year in the NBA over the course of 15 years and even categories like assists and steals, just remarkable consistency all the way throughout your playing days.

00;30;09;27 - 00;30;16;10
Joseph Carr
Is there something you can attribute that to? Why were you able to perform at such a high level for such a long period of time?

00;30;16;12 - 00;30;37;07
Lenny Wilkens
Well, you know, when I was a freshman at Providence College, we were so funny. After our game, I would go sit and watch the Varsity. So I would sit behind the bench because I wanted to see what Joe saw, because he was always yelling and pointing out, you know, this, that No, no. And I wanted to see what they see.

00;30;37;08 - 00;31;02;13
Lenny Wilkens
You know, And it helped me to analyze the game, you know. So I was a big fan of Joe Mulaney. And then when I got into the pros, I became a big fan of Read All About It, because he was so consistent and utilizing his bench and getting maximum from his players. I wanted to see and talk with him and I got the chance to talk to him a couple of times, you know.

00;31;02;15 - 00;31;38;11
Lenny Wilkens
So to me I thought the success that they all got was the fact that they utilized their bench. They made sure their team was prepared. And I tell young coaches, young players preparation so important. You know, you need to be ready and know what the other team can do and do and so forth. You know, some my high school coach said to me, even though I only played a short time, he used to say that I had good court awareness, great court awareness, and I wanted to know what that meant, you know?

00;31;38;12 - 00;31;57;19
Lenny Wilkens
And so when I watched the game today, I could see I can see that players sometimes don't even know where they are or they don't know how to help. They don't know how to rotate. Someone gets behind it. They don't even see it, you know? And I'm saying to myself, how can that be? You know? I mean, how can you step out of line on the line?

00;31;57;21 - 00;32;25;11
Lenny Wilkens
I mean, I you know, you should know the Court so well. And so I made a point and knowing all these things, I wasn't afraid to get up and pressure the ball because I was going to make the guy have to do something with it or get rid of it, you know? So I think those things helped me to realize that if your team played defense and competed on the defensive end, they had a chance to win as well.

00;32;25;13 - 00;32;54;29
Lenny Wilkens
And you can't be just all offense. So I was one who thoroughly enjoyed the game and talking today. So that's why I can probably still watch the game. I mean, if it's going in the wrong direction, I may not watch it very long, but my wife is funny because when I'm watching the game, she'll say to me, you know, I'll make a comment and she'll say, They can't hear you.

00;32;54;29 - 00;33;13;06
Lenny Wilkens
But but it's it's an exciting game. And we have so many great players today. I mean, these guys are phenomenal because they've had the green light all their career and they've had someone probably working with them to help them develop and grow.

00;33;13;08 - 00;33;18;24
Joseph Carr
How would the three point line, this three point shot, have changed your game if it would have?

00;33;18;27 - 00;33;39;27
Lenny Wilkens
You know, I still was going to go to the basket, but, you know, I, I talk about it because I had a player, Fred Brown, who had a three point line, was in there in the beginning of his career. You know, and this guy could shoot from there. I mean, he'd go dead to the corner. It was like a high school player.

00;33;39;27 - 00;34;07;16
Lenny Wilkens
I played against ones who went to Jefferson High in Brooklyn, New York, named Tony Jackson. And Tony would go deep to the corner, stop, turn, and bam! And and he would make it. Just imagine if a three point line existed when he played, too. So but like I said, it's a great addition to the game. I don't think that I would have used it as much as a lot of guys did, because I really knew I could get to the basket.

00;34;07;20 - 00;34;16;00
Lenny Wilkens
I didn't play. I knew I could get there, but I also knew where my teammates were. So that if someone came to help, I could take advantage of it.

00;34;16;02 - 00;34;33;21
Joseph Carr
So you break down the defense and that gives you an assist opportunity. Sure. Speaking of Deadeye long ball shooter is a guy love here in Friar Towns. Joe Hassett, who is the radio voice, the analyst on the radio broadcast, loves his friars still, but he played for you and in the Paul.

00;34;33;24 - 00;34;35;07
Lenny Wilkens
George team yeah.

00;34;35;11 - 00;34;38;20
Joseph Carr
So like that relationship and Joe as a player.

00;34;38;22 - 00;35;15;00
Lenny Wilkens
Funny funny just a great guy and and we tease him saying that he never saw a shot he didn't like but but certainly could shoot the ball and wanted to be a part of what we were doing. And so he worked on the defense as well. Joe knows the game okay. And and it is funny this year because when watching some of the games I'd watch when Providence was on and one time I called it was after a game they were behind might have been Villanova and they came back and won the game and and he was doing the broadcast.

00;35;15;02 - 00;35;38;11
Lenny Wilkens
So I had his cell number and I called and so he called me back and he played our talk, had it on the air, you know, for the fans to hear. So but Joe, Joe is a magnificent young man, and I'm so happy that he's he got that job. He's doing a does well at it. He's an asset to Providence as well.

00;35;38;13 - 00;35;58;04
Joseph Carr
Absolutely. And John Rook, they're a great broadcast team and they really make the games final, really bring the games to life for us fans maybe hear coach when he pointed out in high school that you saw the court so well and had such awareness, maybe he might have had an idea that you would become a coach yourself someday.

00;35;58;10 - 00;36;14;20
Joseph Carr
But one thing that that really interests me is this concept of being a player coach. Both you and Bill Russell and a few others in that period of time in the NBA were player coaches. It seems impossible when you think about it in the context of today, but how did that work?

00;36;14;22 - 00;36;43;24
Lenny Wilkens
Well, it wasn't easy, but you had to have the cooperation of the players, believe me. And certainly I had a coach and I won't mention his name, but sometimes he had a little bit of a hangover and I'd have to run practice. And so I had no problem run in practice. I knew, you know what, we should be working on offensively, what we should work on defensively, how to rotate, you know, how to get the ball to people.

00;36;43;24 - 00;37;10;25
Lenny Wilkens
I mean, it was something that I understood very well. And so being a player coach, what I did was we I played the Sonics wanted me to do it and they, the general manager, Katis, and he said, Well, you run the team anyway, you know. And so I got a guy on the team named Tom Macari, who he was a veteran player like me.

00;37;10;27 - 00;37;38;29
Lenny Wilkens
And and I would tell Tom, I said, okay, with 2 minutes to go in the quarter, take me out, but I need to get a rest. And and during that, I'll get 2 minutes there. I'll get 2 minutes at during a timeout at the end of the quarter and then I'll get another two. So that's 6 minutes and I can get back in and be fresh, you know, and, and I would, we would talk about what to watch for and so forth.

00;37;38;29 - 00;38;05;08
Lenny Wilkens
So, so I did it, you know, and later on it tougher in the beginning it was easy to me it was. But later on we started to get so many young players and I began to realize they didn't know anything about the game. And we're going to have to spend time working with them, teaching, explaining, showing. And that would take more time away from my preparation for the game.

00;38;05;10 - 00;38;15;06
Lenny Wilkens
So that's why I decided it was time to move on. So in 75 I retired and decided to be a full time coach.

00;38;15;08 - 00;38;19;04
Joseph Carr
What would you say were the best NBA teams that you coached?

00;38;19;07 - 00;39;03;05
Lenny Wilkens
I think that I was blessed. Certainly the the Seattle team was great. I mean, I knew the players. I had permission to move guys around and make a couple of trades that I thought were good for the team, the Cleveland team that was a great team. Brad Doherty, Marc Price You know, Larry Nance, we. Mike Sanders, That was a team that Michael Jordan made a great shot against us I had not been on, but also we traded the guy that Ron Harper, which I didn't want to trade, but front office, they had heard some stuff about him and they wanted to make the trade.

00;39;03;05 - 00;39;37;21
Lenny Wilkens
It was a bad move and I left the next year, you know, the next year we won 50 something games and I decided to leave because I was unhappy with how they treated Ron. And and he went on and played with Chicago and won. And so years later, when Embry was our general manager, great guy and everything, but we hadn't spoken since when after they traded Ron years later, he apologized and we talked and I said, Fine, you know, it's over and done with.

00;39;37;23 - 00;39;55;21
Lenny Wilkens
But but that was a great we had a heck of a team and in Cleveland we played at the Richfield Coliseum, which was in the snow belt. And I don't care how bad the weather was, we had over 20,000 fans every day. It was amazing.

00;39;55;24 - 00;40;17;12
Joseph Carr
Yeah, those are great teams. I remember well that playoff series you're talking about when when the Cavs almost took out the Bulls and Jordan made one of his most famous shots to win that series. Right. The great, great era of NBA basketball for for sure. By the way, a total aside, he only does a handful of games every year on ESPN.

00;40;17;12 - 00;40;33;26
Joseph Carr
Now I'm talking about Hubie Brown, but every time I watch a game still, I learned something from him. He was a coaching contemporary of yours. What do you think when you see he'll be brown that now 89 years old, still turning up on television?

00;40;33;28 - 00;41;01;09
Lenny Wilkens
God bless. You know. I mean, it makes it tough all the time. And he'll be really it was a student of the game. He understood the game. He watched. He prepared himself. He was ready for every game. And he didn't miss anything that happened out on the court. And he brings that to the audience. I think, you know, there are so many little things, you know, and that happen while you're on the court that don't get picked up on.

00;41;01;09 - 00;41;15;16
Lenny Wilkens
And he brings it to life. But he certainly enjoys what he does. You know, He really does. I mean, he he gets there, he prepares, he talks to people. So you're not going to catch him off guard?

00;41;15;18 - 00;41;42;21
Joseph Carr
Yeah, he's he's a great broadcaster, that's for sure. I remember I remember hearing Rick Pitino say words to this effect one time when he was coaching the Celtics, that there's more coaching in 5 minutes of an NBA game than an entire college game that's paraphrasing. But does that that point stand up in your mind? What's the intensity of coaching an NBA game like calling every play on offense and on defense, for example?

00;41;42;24 - 00;42;08;06
Lenny Wilkens
Well, to me, it's fun to see, and I agree with that. That's why I say when I talk with young players or young coaches and they ask me, you know, if you could tell me one thing and I tell them preparation, you know, you got to be prepared. You got to know the game, know who you're playing against, what's their strengths and weaknesses, you know, what's the tendencies that they do out there.

00;42;08;08 - 00;42;38;19
Lenny Wilkens
So for me, you know, that's the fun of the game is analyzing and seeing and, you know, influencing the game to that degree. And if you can do that, like I said, you had a great chance to win because defense is so important. We all highlight the defense like we used to, but the defense, the teams that can defend in school and everything, their chances of winning or greater.

00;42;38;22 - 00;43;01;07
Joseph Carr
After you retired from coaching, your last job was with the Knicks in 2005. You moved to back to Seattle and established the the Lenny Wilkens Foundation. Accomplished incredible things with that over the course of many years. Can you tell us what that foundation did and what kind of satisfaction that you draw from the people you were able to have been able to help through the foundation?

00;43;01;10 - 00;43;25;15
Lenny Wilkens
Yeah, well, the Lester Brown Children's Clinic is what it's called, and I was introduced to it when I came here as a player. And I have you know, I was taught early that when you can you need to give back to your community, they're the ones that support you. And so when opportunity presents itself, if you can try and make a difference.

00;43;25;17 - 00;43;59;27
Lenny Wilkens
And so when I was in Cleveland, I worked with a group called Shoes for Kids, and during the holidays we made sure that young people had essential things like underwear and shoes, you know, stuff like that. And Saint Louis, I work with high school dropouts, and it was fun because some of them were my age. And and then when I got to Seattle, I met two ladies who were very active in our community, and they kind of adopted me and my wife.

00;43;59;29 - 00;44;27;23
Lenny Wilkens
They introduced us to the Odessa Brown Children's Clinic. And when I went there and I saw what they were doing with young people, you know, how they inspire them. And and no matter what their background was, they all would treat it with dignity. And I said that that's great. That's unique, you know, because children are our future. They're tomorrow's doctors, lawyers, athletes, you know, politicians.

00;44;27;23 - 00;44;55;04
Lenny Wilkens
They're the future. And here is a clinic in a low income area helping these young people who can't afford health care. And I said, wow, that that's really different. And so the first thing I started to a little tennis tournament, but then I realized more people played golf and we started a golf tournament. And then my wife influenced me that we should have a dinner as well.

00;44;55;07 - 00;45;30;28
Lenny Wilkens
So we made a weekend and we've been blessed. We've been blessed. I've been able to get lots of guys who have played in the NBA. You know, they come to my dinner, I pay this year and, you know, I don't give them any money, but they come and because they want to help out. And I've had, you know, like I said, Johnny Egan would come every year, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, you know, you name it, they would come and they'd have a wonderful time.

00;45;31;00 - 00;46;04;20
Lenny Wilkens
And we were able to raise funds, which helped the clinic to expand because they not only give health care, but they teach young families how to shop, you know, how to preserve, how to be able to get the most for your dollar, you know. And so the clinic has grown over the years. And now they have not only the the one that I originally work with, but they have a much bigger one is in the south end of the city.

00;46;04;23 - 00;46;32;29
Lenny Wilkens
And it does the same thing, provides health care and it works with anybody in the community can come and get the care and regardless of their ability to pay. So to me, I was I was I was just mesmerized by the girl's name, Odessa Brown. She was a single parent mom who didn't have the wherewithal for health care.

00;46;32;29 - 00;46;59;12
Lenny Wilkens
And she got a friend of hers who was a pediatrician to help out on the one day a week. And that's how the clinic started and to be a part of it. And I got to know people after the first medical director was a guy and they blast Breazeale who did a wonderful job. And then we had a guy who is intern there.

00;46;59;12 - 00;47;19;26
Lenny Wilkens
His name was Ben Danielson, and he became the medical director after Blanche passed away. And and Ben's passion for young people to help them grow mature, you know, was was magnificent. So it became my charity that still lives.

00;47;19;29 - 00;47;34;06
Joseph Carr
I imagine the impact of that work, It's it's incalculable when you help a young person change the direction of their life. I mean, they the effect of that just goes on forever. It's it's an amazing accomplishment, isn't it?

00;47;34;09 - 00;48;17;14
Lenny Wilkens
Yeah, it really is. It really is. And, you know, I learned early in life, you know, that and I tell young athletes the same thing, you know, learn to take care of yourself. Once you are able to take care of yourself, then you can give back to your community as best you can, you know? And so I'm thankful because like I said, while we had to stop the dinner because of the of it, but we still have the foundation and we try to do a few little things, but when we accumulate, we give to the planet.

00;48;17;17 - 00;48;20;09
Lenny Wilkens
We'll always give to the clinic.

00;48;20;12 - 00;48;30;24
Joseph Carr
You're a legend in Freetown, obviously, but also in Seattle, where they've named a city street. After you. What's your relationship with the city and the people of Seattle like?

00;48;30;26 - 00;48;53;16
Lenny Wilkens
Well, it's a they are wonderful people. I mean, they supported the Sonics. They still do, even though we don't have a team here. You know, wherever I go, people ask me, when are we getting the team back? You know, the team was that popular in Seattle because all the guys seem to give back to the community. They loved it.

00;48;53;16 - 00;49;22;18
Lenny Wilkens
They like doing it. And there is potential. We hear talk. The place where you used to play is now called Climate Pledge Arena. They have hockey there, but they redid it. And so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I think in a couple of years we'll have a team here which will be great. Seattle's just a great community and the fans are tremendous fans.

00;49;22;18 - 00;49;37;16
Lenny Wilkens
They support their teams and you know, I've seen lots of young people going on and they're involved in something, but they like giving back to the community. And I think that's what we've done.

00;49;37;18 - 00;49;56;17
Joseph Carr
Well, that's great. I'm glad you brought that up because I was wondering what the talk is locally about the potential return of the NBA to Seattle. It's very unusual scenario where a city has an AFL, NHL Major League Baseball, but no, and WNBA, by the way, the storm very successful, but no NBA franchise. It doesn't make sense in some ways.

00;49;56;20 - 00;50;05;06
Lenny Wilkens
It really doesn't. And and we talk about it. It's fun, you know, but we're looking forward to the day that we get it back.

00;50;05;06 - 00;50;34;27
Joseph Carr
Really appreciate your time today. This has been been delightful. We had high expectations and high hopes, but you've you've really exceeded them. But let you go and enjoy the rest of your day there in Seattle. And we'll look forward to that possibility of you returning for a game down the road. Hopefully before very long. It's an amazing experience that that the the app we call it now downtown the Amiga Mutual Pavilion, the fan support for this program is incredible.

00;50;34;27 - 00;50;40;14
Joseph Carr
And it's so much fun, you know, to enjoy that. And it will be even that much more fun with you there.

00;50;40;16 - 00;50;42;25
Lenny Wilkens
Well, I would look forward to it, believe me.

00;50;42;25 - 00;50;55;29
Joseph Carr
So, you know, your Providence College legacy is assured. And whenever your name comes up, it's always with respect and reverence. And we do wish you good health and happiness and a great summer. And again, thank you so much.

00;50;56;01 - 00;50;58;08
Lenny Wilkens
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

00;50;58;10 - 00;51;34;27
Joseph Carr
And to our audience, thank you for joining us for the Providence College Podcast. Episodes are available, the college's YouTube channel and all podcast apps for producer Chris Judge and for technical assistance today from Lenny's daughter Jamie. I am grateful. I'm Joe Carr. Thanks for joining us. Until next time.