00;00;00;23 - 00;00;17;15
Liz Kay
Hello and welcome to the Providence College podcast. I'm your host, Liz Kay, and I'm joined by producer Chris Judge of the class of 2005 here in the Province College podcast. We bring you interesting stories from the Fryer family. This week, we're talking with Dr. Eric LaBelle, a member of the class of 2015 as a biochemistry and music double major.

00;00;17;15 - 00;00;42;08
Liz Kay
He was just as likely to be found in either a research lab or playing the organ in, say, Dominic Chapel. LaBelle got his doctorate at Stanford University in Environmental Earth System Science. He now serves as senior scientist at PFC Healthy Energy, a nonprofit research institute based in Oakland. He and his colleagues recently made national headlines with a research study demonstrating that gas appliances such as stoves leak methane and other gases even when turned off.

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Liz Kay
Eric, it's great to talk to you.

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Eric Lebel '15
Thanks for having me, Liz. Glad to be here.

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Liz Kay
So can you tell us a little bit more about your study? What did you and your colleagues set out to examine?

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Eric Lebel '15
Yes. So we looked at methane emissions from gas stoves. And this is part of a bigger project looking at methane emissions from gas appliances and homes This research started several years ago when my advisor was a part of a project in Boston, very close to Providence. And you guys may know where that is. But looking at the methane emissions from the sources of the city and then also looking at methane emissions from the city as a whole, from a city wide perspective, and they found that there was quite a bit more methane that was being emitted than what was adding up from the different sources.

00;01;24;13 - 00;01;49;20
Eric Lebel '15
So one of the hypotheses was is that buildings specifically residences and other commercial buildings and industrial facilities may be emitting methane and hasn't been measured yet. So as part of my Ph.D., I've set out to help answer that question by measuring methane from different appliances in homes. And so we did a project on water heaters. And now this project based I'm looking at natural gas stoves.

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Liz Kay
And so why is methane such a problem?

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Eric Lebel '15
Methane is a problem specifically from a climate impact, because it's a stronger greenhouse gas and carbon dioxide, especially over shorter timescales. And the methane is a lot stronger than carbon dioxide and pound for pound over a 20 year timescale. For instance, methane has been shown to be 86 times stronger than carbon dioxide and 34 times over a 100 year timescale.

00;02;17;02 - 00;02;34;22
Eric Lebel '15
So we're mainly interested in methane as a short term greenhouse gas. If we can eliminate about a quarter of the radiative forcing with the total greenhouse gas impact just by looking at methane alone. So it is the second most important greenhouse gas after carbon dioxide.

00;02;34;28 - 00;02;39;09
Liz Kay
And tell us about your findings what did you and your colleagues find out?

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Eric Lebel '15
So from the natural gas stoves, we found that the interesting thing that we found was that methane is leaked from stoves even while the stove is off. We found that three quarters of the total emissions from the natural gas stoves came from this off period, which we found to be pretty interesting We there's also a fair amount of methane emissions that happen while you're turning a stove on that click, click, click sound when you when you ignite the burner sometimes you can smell gas from that phase.

00;03;08;03 - 00;03;22;05
Eric Lebel '15
And we measure that and we're able to put a number on how much gas is being emitted during that phase. And also while the stove is on, while the oven is on, all these times we found that there was some amount. In most circumstances, there was some amount of gas being emitted from the stove.

00;03;22;10 - 00;03;26;19
Liz Kay
And what about health impacts from these gases that are being emitted is methane a problem?

00;03;27;06 - 00;03;51;08
Eric Lebel '15
Methane, per se is not an issue from the concentrations that we were measuring from the stoves. But methane is more of a concern from a safety perspective, as it can be explosive at 5% concentration by volume. But the concentrations that you can see we've been seeing in kitchens are not exceeding that threshold at all. However, that's not to say that this can't happen.

00;03;51;26 - 00;04;10;00
Eric Lebel '15
This is why gas companies put odorants in gas that gives it that rotten egg smell. Without that, these extra compounds, their sulfur based compounds and or captains, without these extra compounds, you want to be able to smell natural gas in your house. But they put these compounds in so that you can detect concentrations of gas in your house.

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Eric Lebel '15
So if you ever smell gas in your house, it's always a good idea to call the gas company ASAP. To have them come take a look to make sure that there isn't a leak in your house or that the leak is not hazardous for a state. From a safety standpoint, But anyway, for most of the concentrations that we were measuring in homes and the leak rates that we were seeing, this is not an issue from a safety hazard standpoint.

00;04;34;13 - 00;04;58;19
Eric Lebel '15
However, we did look at some other gases from stoves. We looked at nitrogen oxides, which is made up of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide. I know and I know too, and I know it too. Is a very well known air toxin, and it's a respiratory irritant, cause asthma, difficulty breathing, and in some extreme cases, hospitalization is mainly an issue for it's more of an issue for children.

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Eric Lebel '15
And we found that it's known that gas and burning gas and and from will release these these nitrogen oxides. And we found that this is not an exception for gas stoves. We were able to put a measurement on how much energy was being released from the gas stove and found that the rates that we were seeing have the potential to exceed the Environmental Protection Agency's one, our outdoor standard of 02.

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Eric Lebel '15
And in certain burning conditions, whether it depending on how many burners you have on and how big your kitchen is and what your ventilation is like in your kitchen.

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Liz Kay
So if you're one of the 40 million households with a gas stove, what should you do? Should we be replacing these appliances right away?

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Eric Lebel '15
Yeah. The immediate thing to do is just any time you have your you're using your stove, whether or not you're boiling water or cooking frying something up. You should always, always, always turn on the gas hood if you had one, to ventilate above the stove. And if you don't have a gas hood, then the best thing to do, maybe not when it's wintertime, but it's always good to open a window just to get some extra ventilation going on inside the kitchen, especially to reduce those those local concentrations of nitrogen oxides that are being released from the stoves produced from and from burning the gas.

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Eric Lebel '15
If you're in the market for a new stove, I would definitely advocate to to consider getting an electric stove. It's when we know we know that in the future that electricity is going to be cleaned up. So it's not that you're not going to be saving just methane emissions. But over time, as more renewable energy is being added to the grid, it'll be less carbon impact, too, from the same carbon dioxide emissions as well.

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Eric Lebel '15
And you may be thinking, too, that. Oh, I don't like cooking on an electric stove. It's so it's it's a painful experience compared to a gas stove. But there is a newish technology out there. I say newish because it's actually been in Europe for several decades. We're just been slow and on this side of the pond for implementing it.

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Eric Lebel '15
But it's called induction cooking. So it's still an electric stove. But the way it works is completely different. It creates a magnetic field and it will heat the pot directly rather than creating a hot element for Europeans to sit on You have to have a magnetic pot for it to work. But it works great with cast irons and, you know, all kinds of other magnetic pockets.

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Eric Lebel '15
You can test your pots by using a fridge magnet to see if it if it sticks to the pot or not. But anyway, it's it's been shown that induction cooking is faster at boiling water than a gas stove. And it's also more sensitive and you can even melt chocolate directly on the stove rather than having heating and double boil.

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Eric Lebel '15
And it has other safety features too. Like if you happen to leave your stove on and you don't have a pot, there is nothing's going to happen. It just won't even get hot. So it's more of a safety hazard or safety. It's it's good for safety if you have kids around or elderly folks at home that may may leave the stove on by accident.

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Liz Kay
I had not heard that double boiling feature. That that does sound attractive, though, as a diehard gas stove fan. And when I'm cooking, I think that that might push me over the edge.

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Eric Lebel '15
You can even test it out, do they? They sell on Amazon. You came just by a single burner induction just to test it out. And I know that some some towns in California, for instance, are have programs I saw one in San Diego, for instance, that you can just go to the local I think it's the library and just check one out for a couple of days to test it out and bring it to your house.

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Eric Lebel '15
I have an electric stove in my house I rent so I don't have a choice, but I still just got an hour and a test induction cooktop just to try it out myself too. I just got that this morning.

00;08;49;07 - 00;08;56;19
Liz Kay
Eric, are there any communities that are more significantly affected by these leaks from gas appliances that you found?

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Eric Lebel '15
Yeah, it's more of an issue for people with smaller kitchens and people who use their stoves more often and have poor ventilation. And we've been finding that or other studies have been finding that this is more of an issue with economically disadvantaged communities. And if you consider that they're more likely to have smaller kitchens, they might be more likely to use their stove more often.

00;09;19;06 - 00;09;38;14
Eric Lebel '15
And there's also more of a chance that they're not going to have as affective of event. So the vent hoods are only as effective as as they're designed to be. And I've seen a lot of hoods even in California, too. That was part of our other research that we've been doing where where you turn the vent hood on and it doesn't actually blow the air outside the house.

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Eric Lebel '15
It just blows it back into the room. So that's not going to help reduce NOx concentrations that much. They put a filter in there in the hood, but it's not as effective as blowing in the air directly outside, outside the house. So you can imagine that, especially in these economically disadvantaged communities, is that it's really important to make sure that we are not leaving them behind when we switch the to the bat or let's say that they're not left behind when we switch to these switch to electric appliances and they can even benefit even more from the switch to electric appliances because the electric appliances will not produce NOx just from turning the flame on.

00;10;23;18 - 00;10;28;01
Eric Lebel '15
So there'll be they'll be less of a health impact inside their kitchen, for instance.

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Liz Kay
And I think there's all kinds of data about like the incidence of things like asthma among children and folks in communities that are often economically disadvantaged. And it sounds like this may be just one more factor that folks have to be aware of.

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Eric Lebel '15
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

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Liz Kay
And so this is something that many municipalities are trying to work toward, right? Like trying to reduce the number of gas hookups in communities.

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Eric Lebel '15
Yeah, that's right. So it's it's a big thing that's going on. It started in California. Berkeley, California was the first to do it, I think back in 2019. And it's been been taking spreading like wildfire. The most recent notable case was New York City banned construction and banned gas and new construction for buildings less than seven storeys by 2023 and more than seven storeys by 2027.

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Eric Lebel '15
But the main thing about these these gas bans is for the most part they have been on new construction which makes a lot of sense because we found from our study that methane leaks from the appliance. Other studies have found that methane leaks from the gas pipes there's that in the neighborhood going up into the buildings. So if you build a new neighborhood of homes, not only are you saving the methane emissions from the appliance itself, but you're also saving it from the distribution of getting the gas to your house, which could also have leaks as well.

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Eric Lebel '15
And then as we keep scaling this up, you know, more and more of these distribution systems will be eliminated and there's less of a chance for methane to leak in. And then, of course, the CO2 generation, CO2 production will be be reduced as the grid gets its cleaner. It's already cleaner than than gas in California, or at least let's say that it's cleaner than average in California, for instance.

00;12;13;29 - 00;12;23;01
Eric Lebel '15
So it makes a lot more sense to all electric now in California. But over time, the grid will continue to be cleaned up and and reduce the climate impacts of home energy use.

00;12;23;24 - 00;12;31;26
Liz Kay
So we be able to still do the things that we need to do, like cook food in our homes just with a more environmentally friendly source of energy.

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Eric Lebel '15
That's right. Yeah. And hopefully a better cooking experience to for from for the most part.

00;12;37;06 - 00;12;43;25
Liz Kay
So you did those work as part of your doctorate. Please tell us more about Earth System Science or any listeners who might not be familiar with it.

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Eric Lebel '15
Yeah. So the our program at Stanford was a very wide range of, of, of, of different research topics. So even within my lab, my officemate, who we started the same time, had the same advisor, same Ph.D. program. I was looking at methane emissions and he was looking at carbon uptake and storage and tree roots. So completely different, different research topics, which also makes it kind of fun.

00;13;09;26 - 00;13;34;07
Eric Lebel '15
But the overarching thing that we all looked at was looking at it how climate change is affected by different systems in the earth and over like a human timescale. So looking out over, you know, specifically looking at like land use change, ocean acidification issues, you know, ecology issues, looking at and specifically looking at how climate change is going to affect these issues over the next several decades.

00;13;34;28 - 00;13;57;27
Eric Lebel '15
So that was the program I was in at Stanford. It was a lot of fun being able to learn about all these different facets of Earth system science and looking at how how climate change is really going to to play a role in and changing these these systems and how we can we can adapt and mitigate these systems and these effects of climate change and in the in the next several years.

00;13;58;08 - 00;14;01;13
Liz Kay
And why were you interested in a program like this? What would what attracted you?

00;14;01;26 - 00;14;32;11
Eric Lebel '15
I'm I was just super interested after and applying my degree, I got a PC, which was and one of them was in biochemistry. But I want really wanted to apply that that chemistry knowledge to to something that was Earth science related. And the inspiration for that really came after an internship I did with NASA at the summer before my senior year at PC, where we got to fly around to NASA's airplane and take air samples through through the plane and take their other data.

00;14;33;05 - 00;14;52;25
Eric Lebel '15
We collected our own data and were able to make a research project about that data and in a span of eight weeks, which I thought was really cool. And so I wanted to be able to continue to to do that at a appropriate program. And I was really interested in merging my love for being outdoors and being you know, going places and doing things.

00;14;52;25 - 00;15;11;10
Eric Lebel '15
Hands-On with my chemistry background. So this project seemed to fit pretty well with me. And my advisor was looking for somebody to look specifically at methane emissions when I, when I applied. And I thought it was a good fit, and it was great to be able to to go to the West Coast and, and go to grad school at Stanford.

00;15;12;24 - 00;15;20;04
Liz Kay
You mentioned your unique combination of majors at PC Biochem in music. What led you to Province College originally? How did you choose this college.

00;15;21;19 - 00;15;48;15
Eric Lebel '15
There are a lot of different things. The main thing was, is that I got the sense that I would be able to pursue both of my passions. While ABC at the time, I still wasn't quite sure exactly what I wanted to do with with my science background. I was also interested in at the time, so I was really excited to see that, you know, Percy had a very strong chemistry, biochemistry, biology programs, and there would be lots of options for me to to explore that side of my brain.

00;15;48;27 - 00;16;18;07
Eric Lebel '15
I was simultaneously having a very strong music program where I would be able to play the organ and take organ lessons and singing choirs, which I did quite a lot of while I was at P.S. And then having the liberal arts education too, as a park on top as well were, you know, being able to to take advantage of of these other classes that wouldn't it be able to take at, say, in our one research school, for instance, that I thought that was that was a great a great way to round out my education by pacing.

00;16;18;17 - 00;16;22;19
Liz Kay
And did you do undergraduate research? Did you work with a faculty member on research?

00;16;22;22 - 00;16;37;27
Eric Lebel '15
I did. I worked with Dr. Cornely for about a year or two, a year and a half. I was part of her phage program, so I wasn't the one who helped discover phages, but I did do some of the post analysis on some of the pages that she discovered with her students.

00;16;38;09 - 00;16;45;16
Liz Kay
So if you think back to your time at PC, are there any particular classes or experiences that you find that you're using in your work today?

00;16;45;24 - 00;16;56;25
Eric Lebel '15
Hmm. Can now. Now we're getting the tough questions. These are not the ones that the reporters have been asking me Yeah, I mean, for sure.

00;16;58;27 - 00;17;16;25
Eric Lebel '15
I mean, I, I still, I still use all my music classes. I still play the organ and do all that kind of stuff and still talk about music theory and sing in choirs and stuff like that. But on the science side of things, I would say that I definitely do use I do a lot of my classes. Analytical chemistry is a big one.

00;17;16;25 - 00;17;38;05
Eric Lebel '15
You know, we're talking about working, whether it's putting samples into labs these days and, you know, talking with the labs about how to run an analysis and by analyzes of our own to use and having to talk through the different aspects of the analyzers, for instance. So that was that's been a very useful class specifically. But just having the background of organic chemistry and, you know, physical chemistry has been really useful.

00;17;39;00 - 00;17;53;01
Eric Lebel '15
You know, as we delve into different topics that maybe I haven't learned as much about like fluid mechanics, for instance, which was became pretty important in talking about how to design this experiment to be able to collect these data in the first place.

00;17;53;07 - 00;17;56;19
Liz Kay
Right. When you're measuring how gases disperse in a space. Right.

00;17;56;21 - 00;18;23;16
Eric Lebel '15
Exactly. Yeah. But I think overall that the big thing that's that's been been really useful is just having that science background because being thrust into a program like this and being able to know how to get the information and sift through it and be able to design an experiment that will be successful in the end. Like a lot of these projects that I worked on as part of my Ph.D., we had to design our own methods for it.

00;18;23;16 - 00;18;48;08
Eric Lebel '15
But there weren't existing I mean, there were some existing methods, but we had to adapt the methods for our particular use case and the data we were hoping to get out of it. So there's something that we use with the stoves. To my knowledge, no one's ever measured a gas stove like that before. People have measured gas stove before using other methods which, you know, have their pros and cons and we had a certain set of tools available to us that we wanted to be able to make sure that we incorporated.

00;18;48;13 - 00;19;11;23
Eric Lebel '15
There were certain data points we wanted to get, in particular in that estimate of how much stove leaks while there off was really important to us. And so being able to design this method that would be able to to answer that question and be able to think through those those different pitfalls and, you know, pros and cons to do each of the different methods as we were as we were designing them.

00;19;12;09 - 00;19;30;18
Eric Lebel '15
And then we also had to test these out, too. So we can't just say, all right, we're going to use this method. Let's go start measuring stoves right now. We had to go to a, you know, we had found a building on campus where we can do a controlled release of methane where we would, you know, simulate I still have a mission to make sure that that the way we were doing it actually did work.

00;19;30;18 - 00;19;47;26
Eric Lebel '15
And real, real life or we went to in one case went to a house that had an electric stove and had no other gas in the house and brought out our cylinder of methane that we could get to do a controlled release and take the measurements there. So it was really fun being able to to design that experiment.

00;19;47;26 - 00;20;02;28
Eric Lebel '15
And it did bring it back to my times at PC where I spent many afternoons, usually two days a week and in a lab and having to to do an experiment. And and now I got to design and do it do it over a much longer period of time.

00;20;03;14 - 00;20;11;21
Liz Kay
I wanted to ask you also about your music background and how you first got interested in music in the first place, and specifically in playing the organ. Where did that start?

00;20;12;02 - 00;20;30;04
Eric Lebel '15
I started back when I was in high school, actually. It was it was eighth grade. I was taking lessons, piano lessons at a church. The church had just gotten a new a new music director. And I was his first student as he was there. And this church happens to have a very large organ. It's the First Presbyterian Church of Glen Falls, New York.

00;20;31;07 - 00;20;47;12
Eric Lebel '15
It's in the top 100 largest organs in the country and the very small town in upstate New York. And one day I was taking lessons and I I was playing this easy piece. It was well, I thought it was easy or I would think it's easy now. I didn't think it was easy at a time. It's called Simple Gifts.

00;20;48;12 - 00;21;11;29
Eric Lebel '15
And then one day the music director was asked me if I wanted to try the piece on the organ. And so I said, sure, I can try on the organ. And so it was an organ piece, but we arranged it for organ where you can change different manuals and play with your play with the pedals. And then a few weeks later, I got practice enough and I was good enough at it and said, Do you want to try playing it for the service on Sunday?

00;21;12;13 - 00;21;29;26
Eric Lebel '15
And I said, Sure, I could try that out. I remember being I was so nervous I couldn't. All I had to do is play one pedal note and it was just either push it and hold it down. And I was so nervous to do that, I couldn't actually keep it down. And I was shaking so much so. So that was the the first time ever played the organ in public.

00;21;30;04 - 00;21;49;15
Eric Lebel '15
And I think I was in eighth grade at the time. And then I just kept practicing and practicing. And I eventually was able to play in more than one note in a piece and with my with my feet. And it just kept going from there. And so then by the time I graduated high school, I was interested in continuing studying the organ.

00;21;49;27 - 00;22;11;23
Eric Lebel '15
I applied to PC and got in and took organ lessons for four years while I was there. And I, I maybe I'll say this anyway, but the peak day of organ performance I'll probably ever have was on April 15th, 20, 15, when I had my senior recital in St Dominic Chapel but I remember that that year I had practiced so much for this recital.

00;22;11;24 - 00;22;30;09
Eric Lebel '15
Nice practicing consistently, you know, several hours per day being peak performance for the front of my senior recital. And I do say that that was the best to ever play the organ because I don't think they'll ever come at a time in my life where I'll be spending multiple hours every single day practicing the organ That's not to say that I haven't gotten better in some senses.

00;22;30;16 - 00;22;54;01
Eric Lebel '15
I've gotten better at sight reading because I do play for churches on Sundays and most Sundays. Now I'm just a free agent. So and just get go around playing. I also play at Stanford during the academic year. We have a 9 p.m. mass on campus and I'm in charge of playing the organ for that and leading the choir so during the academic year, I have a regular organ playing gig and the Stanford organ's not too shabby either.

00;22;54;12 - 00;22;58;03
Eric Lebel '15
So it's a lot of fun to play that play and Memorial Church on campus.

00;22;58;10 - 00;23;06;24
Liz Kay
So how did you balance your kind of hard science background in your creative music side? Did it help to be on these kind of parallel tracks or.

00;23;07;04 - 00;23;29;28
Eric Lebel '15
I'll start by saying that maybe I don't recommend taking the 22 of the most time intensive majors, that PC that you the PC offers, I think. I mean, in terms of like time per credit, you think that you have you have all these labs that you get one credit for and you have to take with each of your classes and then you have all of these rehearsals that you have to go to as a music major and you go and get one credit for it.

00;23;29;28 - 00;24;04;28
Eric Lebel '15
And then you have ear training and which also is attached to a music theory class that you have to take and so I was I was taking a lot of classes, let's just say that, and my day was very scheduled. But on the flip side, I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed having that structured time and having that that structured switch to between going from a lab for an entire afternoon to going to you can enjoy a rehearsal in the evening, for instance, and just being able to to put science aside for a couple of hours and just singing acquire rehearsal or not and not have to think about music for several hours while working on an

00;24;04;28 - 00;24;26;01
Eric Lebel '15
experiment in the lab in the afternoon or studying for a picnic. Sam, for instance. So anyway, I enjoyed having having both both and it works for me, but I can see that. Yeah, there are definitely pros and cons to it. I wish I had the chance to study abroad, for instance, but that didn't work out with the two majors I had.

00;24;26;24 - 00;24;36;11
Liz Kay
Well, I'm hoping that at some point your research, you know, you'll get to present your research at a conference that'll take you abroad maybe not a whole semesters length, but.

00;24;36;20 - 00;24;50;02
Eric Lebel '15
Yeah, not going to be first semesters like. But yeah, I did manage to go abroad. I did a solo, not solo, but say a backpacking trip through Europe after graduating for about a month and a half. So I got my I got my travel in.

00;24;50;22 - 00;24;51;21
Liz Kay
Did you get to play any?

00;24;51;22 - 00;24;52;25
Eric Lebel '15
It was a PC structured.

00;24;53;22 - 00;24;56;06
Liz Kay
Did you get to play in any organs while you were in Europe?

00;24;56;21 - 00;25;11;01
Eric Lebel '15
Unfortunately, no. One of my best friends who also has an organist, James Broder, class of 2014, he came with me for a few weeks to it and it was our goal to try and play at least one organ. But we weren't, we weren't able to squeeze our way in, in any of the churches that we visited. Unfortunately.

00;25;12;00 - 00;25;16;08
Liz Kay
Eric, I think right this is bucket list for you now, right? You'll get to.

00;25;17;09 - 00;25;18;06
Eric Lebel '15
Play on target in Europe.

00;25;20;09 - 00;25;23;13
Liz Kay
Eric, it's been wonderful chatting with you today. Thank you so much for joining us.

00;25;23;27 - 00;25;25;10
Eric Lebel '15
Thank you for having me. It's been great.

00;25;26;05 - 00;25;37;14
Liz Kay
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